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my minisystem design
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toppobrillo



Joined: Dec 10, 2005
Posts: 766
Location: oakland, ca
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 12:29 am    Post subject: my minisystem design Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

heyyya ihaven't been on here much lately...

i have been busy starting planning, prototyping and designing circuits to build a small, very portable and extra-versatile, fully patchable system...

unlike the guy who was on here a few weeks ago selling circuit boards, [which, by the way, i have some i could sell too, they are R-Wilson boards i made a looong while ago and prolly won't use] who said that messing around with the G2 had compelled him to put his hardware conquest on hold, the G2 has actually inspired me to build a take-anywhere small but awesome system for use on the go!

i have very little time to get it together if i wanna be able to take it out to california with me this summer, in fact, it may be unrealistic to expect to finish in time!

the past few days, i have been working on a ribbon controller circuit. i started messing with the PAIA Dual CV one with the diagram on the website....first of all, i am now TOTALLY sold on the dual CV control, that is cool. But, unfortunately, this PAIA design overall isn't so great, in fact, it doesn't really work as shown. the CV is generated OK, but the gate circuit and sample and holds don't work well...

oh well, i have made lots of changes and am Very close now to a good working circuit, just a couple of things to work out. i am trying to keep the parts count very small, i may have to break down and compromise on this one though..

josh
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bugbrand



Joined: Nov 27, 2005
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Josh,
That sounds really exciting - yeah, wanted to look at that dual ribbon for a long time..
The idea of mighty portable synths is great (--are you going for synth sounds or power processing?) - and what will you use for the case? I always think the casing / layout has a great influence on what sounds you'll get out of a device (..really - how it inspires you etc..!..)
And, yes, G2 - I've realised I should have got one a while ago and now I must remedy the situation and buy one asap... No doubt the G2 is just about the most wondrous instrument, but DIY things feel very different and have their own wonder.

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toppobrillo



Joined: Dec 10, 2005
Posts: 766
Location: oakland, ca
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hey bb yeah, i agree the layout and interface of an instrument that is actually meant to be played with hands [until we can use our brains!] is very very important and can kill creativity if not done well. this is what i don't like about newer commercial synthesizers in general.

these new design engineers are starting to yeild with more hands-on control- it doesn't matter whether the sound generation and processing are digital or hyped as 'fully analog' or whatever- the average consumer of these expensive machines [there are some that are better than others] doesn't know and couldn't tell the difference anyways. it's all about the interface.

like i've said before, if the Ensoniq ESQ-1 had a knob and switch or jack or whatever for every thing it could do, it would still bring the 2,000$ or whatever it sold for originally today, instead of $200 or even less. i paid 175 for mine. but, who wants to cycle through pages of menus like that? it's meant to be programmed and patches stored. that suits the some just fine i guess. not for me!

......anyways..... for the case i will use good old 1/2" plywood. the plan is to build it as a 'suitcase' type of enclosure, with a removable top via latches. i have cut and mitred 2 pieces that measure 14" x 9 1/2" one for the base, one for the lid. the ribbon controller and joystick and associated controls will occupy about 3" of this depth, so that gives me 6" x 14" of panelspace, which should be good. i will either build the circuitry blocks into module type panels, or one piece, haven't decided yet.

it would be alot easier to service if i could pull circuits out one-at-a-time, but this makes me have to think in terms of what to group together in each 'module'. an inspiration for this design is the music easel, which is a portable system containing standard buchla sized modules.

here is a picture of the plywood and the patchpoints i am using- my patch cables will be simply pieces of wire. and here is a picture of them in their native environment, an old 300-in-1 kit from radioschack. notice that they are uninsulated, i will heatshrink them and hot-glue them in or just use thin hardboard panels not sure about that yet either.


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toppobrillo



Joined: Dec 10, 2005
Posts: 766
Location: oakland, ca
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ok so heres the different circuits i am going to [try to] include in this:

here's to all the geniuses behind this work!

[hahah looking at it now i think i must be a little crazy- oh well aim high!]

the dual cv of ribbon control, which, by the way now is about 99% there. CV is drooping a bit after hold is initiated.

a joystick controller with manual gate button. pretty simple

2 simple vc EG/VCA combos with a 'hold' function [prolly with OTAs but i have been thinking about a digital design also. i have alot of digital ICs.]
can be used together to create complex envelopes.

1 vclfo/ s&h combo with controllable slew [from moog]

1 vclfo with quadrature saw, tri and sine outputs [done digitally]

an analog shift register [serge one]

a dual cv quantizer [from oberheim]

a sum/difference, minimum/maximum module with inverters [my own things and serge] a cool way to get a 'divergence' CV, which is "X + Y" compared to "X - Y". good waveshaping.

an analog multiplier/divider [based on 633, marc bareille[sp?]]

2 simple as hell vcos with npn array thermal loop compensation [a-la moog]

a steiner style vcf

1 vc mixer [with a good old quad vca, thanks analog devices! 'interpolating scanner' idea- j haible] i have experimented with this in the G2 demo, its great! like the barberpole idea, only 4 stripes.

1 simple mixer

a noise/complex tonesource. havent put alot of thought into this one. maybe with it's very own BP filter.

logic gates/analog comparators

well yeah. that is a whole lot to cram onto a 7 x 14 panel. it may have to get a litlle bigger.

josh
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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sounds like a great project, Topp. Those springthings are an interesting idea. Keeps the cost down - easy to get more patch cords in a pinch - no need for multiples.

Please keep us informed at this project progresses...

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toppobrillo



Joined: Dec 10, 2005
Posts: 766
Location: oakland, ca
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yeah the [potential] cost is like the one thing that i can't bear! so the plan is to use up all my surplus electronics and supplies, salvage what i can from where i can and work with what i got. i don't really want to have to order anything but perhaps some resistors and a few pots. i gotta be resourceful!

josh
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toppobrillo



Joined: Dec 10, 2005
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Location: oakland, ca
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

and here is the little power supply and distribution board. its very simple.. and note: this is NOT press and peel! our laser is busted and i don't have a car anymore. i just spent the last like 4 hours laying this out with rub-on transfer from radioshack, i figured this as a good simple thing to check it out with. get out the tweezers and have a good sharp xacto for sure. it's like splicing tiny tape, and its sticky! next time i use that stuff, i will just use the pads cause their so nice and round and just draw the traces in with an industrial sharpie. i gotta eat something. uurrrghhh.

josh


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dnny



Joined: Mar 12, 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nice. that PCB looks beautiful
good work.

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toppobrillo



Joined: Dec 10, 2005
Posts: 766
Location: oakland, ca
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks. yeah the industrial sharpie doesn't hold up so well actually. i guess maybe if you give it like 3 coats maybe.
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toppobrillo



Joined: Dec 10, 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

just cause i myself really enjoy construction photos here you go. and congrats! on your moderatorship, dnny.


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dnny



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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

topp wrote:
.... and congrats! on your moderatorship, dnny.


thanks id like to keep low profile about this Smile but it's true - I'm now moderating the links section whit seraph.
and the circuit bending + soundlab -sections whit v-un-v.

but now that i start thinking Idea i should announce this - so if anybody have problems they can turn to me.

daniel

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toppobrillo



Joined: Dec 10, 2005
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Location: oakland, ca
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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2006 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

so yeah i gave up on trying a more complex pcb with the 'dry-transfers' a real pain in the neck.. nstead, out of desperation, i decided to give that old beast laserjet a look. turns out it's a coupla broken gear teeth in the fuser assembly. poo. well i managed to fit a washer in there so the good gear gets a little bit of a grip on the broken one [this won't hold up too long i don't imagine, gotta use 'er sparingly] so i am now able to use my press'n'peel again. i got a good sheet and a half left, so i am good to finish out the pcbs for this project, i think.
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toppobrillo



Joined: Dec 10, 2005
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Location: oakland, ca
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

wow what a difference! im ordering a whole new fuser assembly right now so hopefully no more laserless woes here...

this is the first board i made with this printer, it is for a joystick controller, pushbutton gate.. very simple and oh how easy. came out real well, and that rubon trransfer works good for patching.


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toppobrillo



Joined: Dec 10, 2005
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i get so sidetracked... now i am going to finish that danged ribbon controller [see paia's dual CV ribbon].

i don't know if i have totally missed something about the original schematic, but it really won't work as shown. when the output of the op-amps go too negative, which i don't see how they wouldn't in the circuit shown, [see the 10M to V- in the 'trigger proc.' and note that the V tapped from the top-end of the ribbon is presented finally as negative] they pull the charge right out of your hold caps, through the "open" cmos switch. so i added a diode to the 'wiper' of the ribbon, which holds the 'V lo' only slightly [as opposed to very] neg. with no input, and a rectifier circuit to the amp that feeds V HI hold, so that it's output can't go negative.. which makes the s&h work well.

you could just add diodes in series with the V lo and V hi, with resistors to ground [before the cmos] to provide a discharge path for the caps.. this is basically an ASR generator, as the 100k into the hold amps sets the ATT time, the resistor to ground sets the DEC time, and your V in is your sustain level.

still i can't use as small a capacitor as i want to make transients faster in the output.. you can, but the way your finger presses the tactile pot, your V out will droop.. as you pull your finger away, you make contact with a smaller area of pot.. all in the technique i suppose.

the smallest cap im happy with is like .047 uF. i tried polystyrene, and it doesn't seem to do any better here than mylar here as far as i've seen...

anyways


josh
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toppobrillo



Joined: Dec 10, 2005
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

and here is the joystick module done, without yet a home... the 2 pots are: range- which is a dual pot, and offset, which offsets both axiseseseses.. [sp?] [what is the plural of axis?] phonetically: aks-eeze? for now it does 5v range,
either +/- 2.5 or +5/0 or -5/0. may increase that though.


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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

topp wrote:
[what is the plural of axis?]


ax·is
n. pl. ax·es

Source : http://www.thefreedictionary.com

Nice little joystick !

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"Careful with that Axis, Eugene" Cool
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
"Careful with that Axis, Eugene" 8)


English is just like a "sausage full of secrets" I guess ...

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toppobrillo



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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 6:18 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

heheh, "sausage.." that's great!
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zipzap



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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

like the idea of a synth to go. Nice list of modules. I guess it is going to get bigger than first planed....? Why not build two small suitcases? You got 2 hands.
Quote:
a sum/difference, minimum/maximum module with inverters [my own things and serge] a cool way to get a 'divergence' CV, which is "X + Y" compared to "X - Y". good waveshaping.

Sounds intersting. I can´t imagine what this is doing though. You described it well, but is there a more musically speaking description? What does it sound like?
And then there´s the shift register- is that the same as a sequencer?
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zipzap wrote:

Sounds intersting. I can´t imagine what this is doing though.


You could try it with the G2 demo, it has the min/max module (its in the Level section).

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zipzap



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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I dit. Sounds cool, i´ve got no idea whats going on, but it sounds cool!
I connected two lfos to the minmax thing and that to a vco.
How is that done in real life? and how can i compare x+y and x-y? (in the g2 and in life)
Hope this doesn´t get to much ot... i´m just curious
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zipzap wrote:
and how can i compare x+y and x-y? (in the g2 and in life)


Then the 2 input mixer with the inverting buttons would do, but that is not so very interesting by itself. For example, subtract a copy of the input signal from the output of a LP filter and you get a HP filter.
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zipzap



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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thats great! Now i know what i need to build! so subtracting simply means mixing one signal with another one´s inversion.
Makes me thinking: Someone designed this cool moogtype vcf with bandpass out wich is 1 pole - 4 pole of the filter. Like that you could get hipass too, have a multimode moog cascade. If you have res turned up i think it won´t matterm you´ll keep the res that way, but i´m not sure about that right now. I´ll try to simulat that.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:
For example, subtract a copy of the input signal from the output of a LP filter and you get a HP filter.


So, just for completeness...

If you put a high pass and low pass filter in series, you get a band pass filter.

If you subtact the input signal from the output of a band pass, do you get a band reject or notch filter?

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