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Pending Draft Legislation Targeted for Spring 2005
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Michael Chocholak



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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 11:24 am    Post subject: Pending Draft Legislation Targeted for Spring 2005 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As if things aren't crazy enough as it is, they're planning (now THAT'S a new concept for these idiots) to make it infinitely worse. A bad idea for a whole host of reasons, but no big surprise I guess. Read about it here.

If you know or love someone 18 to 26 who doesn't believe in dying or getting maimed for this particular (non)cause, NOW is a good time to get motivated to stop this insanity.

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paul e.



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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Evil or Very Mad

not good....

awful in fact........

toronto is a nice place....

consider moving here.... everyone is welcome

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fuck.

can't do canada. read the whole article.
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for posting this. I could tell they would institute the draft as soon as the Iraq war started. This is the first story I've seen which documents any positive action towards a draft. There aren't going to be nearly enough volunteers for "nation building" in Iraq.

Bush has totally blundered. This is a disaster. There are calls for "stay the course", or "if we pull out now it will mean those who have died have died in vain." They have died in vain, just like the Americans who died in Vietnam died in vain - some of them very good friends of mine.

When you put your finger into an electric socket, it is best to pull out quickly. You can leave it in to prove your manhood.

Now, look for big protests (as soon as people actually are called up for the draft). We are overdue for a major cultural transformation as happend during the Vietnam days.

I wonder what they will do this time for conciencious objectors?
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

maybe imprisonment without a trial. assasination for protest leaders. These things happened during vietnam. The difference is that now there is a legal way to implement fascist policies.
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Michael Chocholak



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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey, want to know the REALLY stupid side to all this? It was congessional liberals who came up with the bill to "call the bluff" on conservative war hawks. Check it out Evil or Very Mad

And this isn't the first time I've heard this argument from liberals. My god I can't believe HOW STUPID people can be! Mad

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yeah, i heard that. sounds fishy to me.

The irony is unbearable. The government will soon be sending people to jail for refusing to commit murder
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Man.. this is bad!
I just saw this incredible documentary "the Fog Of War". It is build around an interview with Robert McNamara. Scary stuff. It kinda reminded me why I am doing this "Utmost Savagery" series. So.. what he says.. is in essence that the Vietnam war was a tragic misunderstanding and the war should never have happened. We knew that already.

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Perhaps a bit off topic, but I found an interesting site some months ago.

http://imaginarymuseum.org/UBW/ubw01a.html

"Unbombing the world"

Quote:
The idea for the Umbombing Project came after I visited Tokyo in 1995. At first I could not understand why only such a few older buildings and landmarks could be seen, and I was shocked to discover that a great part of this huge city had been torched and burnt down during aerial bombing campaigns of the USA Air Force in March-July 1945. I was ashamed not to know that over a hundred thousand people died, probably more than the death toll taken by the atom bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August 1945. As 1995 was the 50 years anniversary of the dropping of the atom bombs, an international debate arose. A discussion partly triggered by a proposed exhibition in the American Smithsonian Institute of Technology of the airplane that dropped the atom bombs, the Enola Gay. A discussion about whether it had been right or wrong to drop the A-bombs; if it had "saved lives" of American soldiers and, possibly, many sections of the Japanese population that would have resisted a traditional sea-born invasion; if "the aggressive and murderous" Japanese nation deserved to be strafed in such a way; if the sea blockade had not already brought Japan on its knees, and so on. 1995 was also the year in which discussion lists on the Internet started booming and many people from the USA, Japan, the world over, used this new discussion medium.

The discussion was marked by an obvious split between right and wrong, victors and defeated, aggressor and counter-aggressor. It did not sufficiently address the wider problem of the use of aerial bombing: ways of waging war whereby civilians run even more risk to be killed than soldiers.

The Unbombing Project is an attempt to go beyond the dichotomized way of discussing war. It raises questions on the massive use of air power during World War II as a means to defeat Nazi Germany, fascist Italy, and imperial Japan (it certainly does not fail to document the indiscriminate and vicious attacks by the air forces of these Axis countries); it raises questions on the practice of "terror-bombing", not aimed at military or economic targets, but at the morale of the population, and thus at their lives. A military strategy that has not sufficiently been put in question, and even continued during the Korean and Vietnam/Indochina wars. The post World War II international tribunals of Nuremberg and Tokyo failed to address the issue of aerial bombing and the hundred thousands of victims it caused. This has left a moral-vacuum, especially on the side of the British, the Americans and allied countries that had a major involvement in the air war (Canada, South Africa, Australia). This moral-vacuum is easily filled with anti-Western, anti-American, sentiments. International justice comes to be seen as a justice which exempts the victors.The debate about the throwing of the atom bombs on Japan, the bombing of Dresden, the Hamburg fire storm, the merciless pounding of Indochina (to mention only a few major cases), smoulders and keeps flaring up at unexpected moments.
.
Air power (aerial bombing and missile attack) continues to be used in the last decades. Not just by 'First World', "Western powers" like the United States or Great Britain but also by 'Second World' powers like the Soviet Union and its offspring, the Russian Federation, as in the case of Afghanistan and Chechnya. 'Thirds World' nations have joined in, as in the cases of Eritrea, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Congo, Angola, and Columbia. Air power is a tool both for internal repression in civil war like situations (Nicaragua, Columbia, Congo, Sierra Leone, Sudan and Sri Lanka) and old fashioned inter-state wars like the one between Iran and Irak. There certainly is a decline in the number of bombing victims, massive and indiscriminate targeting of urban areas is not anymore on the military agenda, as public opinion and its management has become part of 'the military operation'. Nevertheless Gulf, Balkan and Afghanistan Wars saw "unintentional" killing, in spite of the praised "precision" of modern weapons. There may be almost "zero casualties" for the perpetrators, the ones flying, throwing, or merely plotting and pushing a button, human bodies, human lives on the ground are fragile, victims continue to occur, whereby one may also doubt whether the death of demonized adversaries (be they labeled soldiers or terrorists) by explosion or fire is the best solution for solving a conflict.

A historical reconciliation process, of bombing humans and human habitat, is still needed, a process that starts with attempts at "truth finding" and "truth telling", which will reveal that there is more than one truth, which will give some understanding of the military-industrial-complex and the weakness of political decision-makers dealing with it; a process which lets us listen to those from the past who spoke against massive bombing and torching of cities and villages, against the spraying of poison, the casting of cluster bomb; a process in which the voices of the aircrews that risked and often gave their lives, must be heard as well. For many fighters of the air war it has been more than just following orders, it was a fight against totalitarian and murderous regimes, or a defense of the own nation, putting at risk their own lives. Of course this is raising questions in hindsight, but still they need to be posed. Evading them and rigidly continue to foster historical self-righteousness will be impossible. The present is changing and the past will be reappraised.



Tjebbe van Tijen 9/2/2004

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Michael Chocholak



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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
yeah, i heard that. sounds fishy to me.


Actually I saw Rangel talking the talk on tv many months ago. He wanted the draft because it would put rich kids on the front lines instead of just minorities from the nation's ghettos (?). At the time, I didn't take it seriously. I didn't think it was possible to take that train of thought seriously.

I've only heard two strategies so far;
1) Get Bush out of office.
2) Get on a draft board and refuse as many kids as possible.

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Man.. this is bad!
I just saw this incredible documentary "the Fog Of War". It is build around an interview with Robert McNamara. Scary stuff. It kinda reminded me why I am doing this "Utmost Savagery" series.



exactly... that is why that work is important...

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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

With all this talk of equal rights, I wonder if women will be considered for the draft? That might kill the issue if women had to be considered for the draft.
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Michael Chocholak



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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
With all this talk of equal rights, I wonder if women will be considered for the draft? That might kill the issue if women had to be considered for the draft.


This time around - according to the legislation as currently written - going to Canada, college, being a woman or a CO will not exempt you from being inducted.

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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For more info - check the Thomas website (from the Library of Congress). You'll have to search for the two bills since it's not easy to deep link:

search 'bill number': H.R. 163
search 'bill number': S.89

http://thomas.loc.gov/

You can check the wording of the bill, status, who's sponsoring, etc... both bills were introduced 1/7/2003 and referred to committees.


Brief Thomas info if you've never seen it before:
Quote:
Acting under the directive of the leadership of the 104th Congress to make Federal legislative information freely available to the Internet public, a Library of Congress team brought the THOMAS World Wide Web system online in January 1995, at the inception of the 104th Congress. Searching capabilities in THOMAS were built on the InQuery information retrieval system, developed by the Center for Intelligent Information Retrieval based at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst.
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's the House's version of the bill:


Universal National Service Act of 2003 (Introduced in House)

HR 163 IH

108th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 163

To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

January 7, 2003

Mr. RANGEL (for himself, Mr. MCDERMOTT, Mr. CONYERS, Mr. LEWIS of Georgia, Mr. STARK, and Mr. ABERCROMBIE) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Armed Services

A BILL

To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE; TABLE OF CONTENTS.

(a) SHORT TITLE- This Act may be cited as the `Universal National Service Act of 2003'.

(b) TABLE OF CONTENTS- The table of contents for this Act is as follows:

Sec. 1. Short title; table of contents.

Sec. 2. National service obligation.

Sec. 3. Two-year period of national service.

Sec. 4. Implementation by the President.

Sec. 5. Induction.

Sec. 6. Deferments and postponements.

Sec. 7. Induction exemptions.

Sec. 8. Conscientious objection.

Sec. 9. Discharge following national service.

Sec. 10. Registration of females under the Military Selective Service Act.

Sec. 11. Relation of Act to registration and induction authority of Military Selective Service Act.

Sec. 12. Definitions.

SEC. 2. NATIONAL SERVICE OBLIGATION.

(a) OBLIGATION FOR YOUNG PERSONS- It is the obligation of every citizen of the United States, and every other person residing in the United States, who is between the ages of 18 and 26 to perform a period of national service as prescribed in this Act unless exempted under the provisions of this Act.

(b) FORM OF NATIONAL SERVICE- National service under this Act shall be performed either--

(1) as a member of an active or reverse component of the uniformed services; or

(2) in a civilian capacity that, as determined by the President, promotes the national defense, including national or community service and homeland security.

(c) INDUCTION REQUIREMENTS- The President shall provide for the induction of persons covered by subsection (a) to perform national service under this Act.

(d) SELECTION FOR MILITARY SERVICE- Based upon the needs of the uniformed services, the President shall--

(1) determine the number of persons covered by subsection (a) whose service is to be performed as a member of an active or reverse component of the uniformed services; and

(2) select the individuals among those persons who are to be inducted for military service under this Act.

(e) CIVILIAN SERVICE- Persons covered by subsection (a) who are not selected for military service under subsection (d) shall perform their national service obligation under this Act in a civilian capacity pursuant to subsection (b)(2).

SEC. 3. TWO-YEAR PERIOD OF NATIONAL SERVICE.

(a) GENERAL RULE- Except as otherwise provided in this section, the period of national service performed by a person under this Act shall be two years.

(b) GROUNDS FOR EXTENSION- At the discretion of the President, the period of military service for a member of the uniformed services under this Act may be extended--

(1) with the consent of the member, for the purpose of furnishing hospitalization, medical, or surgical care for injury or illness incurred in line of duty; or

(2) for the purpose of requiring the member to compensate for any time lost to training for any cause.

(c) EARLY TERMINATION- The period of national service for a person under this Act shall be terminated before the end of such period under the following circumstances:

(1) The voluntary enlistment and active service of the person in an active or reverse component of the uniformed services for a period of at least two years, in which case the period of basic military training and education actually served by the person shall be counted toward the term of enlistment.

(2) The admission and service of the person as a cadet or midshipman at the United States Military Academy, the United States Naval Academy, the United States Air Force Academy, the Coast Guard Academy, or the United States Merchant Marine Academy.

(3) The enrollment and service of the person in an officer candidate program, if the person has signed an agreement to accept a Reserve commission in the appropriate service with an obligation to serve

on active duty if such a commission is offered upon completion of the program.

(4) Such other grounds as the President may establish.

SEC. 4. IMPLEMENTATION BY THE PRESIDENT.

(a) IN GENERAL- The President shall prescribe such regulations as are necessary to carry out this Act.

(b) MATTER TO BE COVERED BY REGULATIONS- Such regulations shall include specification of the following:

(1) The types of civilian service that may be performed for a person's national service obligation under this Act.

(2) Standards for satisfactory performance of civilian service and of penalties for failure to perform civilian service satisfactorily.

(3) The manner in which persons shall be selected for induction under this Act, including the manner in which those selected will be notified of such selection.

(4) All other administrative matters in connection with the induction of persons under this Act and the registration, examination, and classification of such persons.

(5) A means to determine questions or claims with respect to inclusion for, or exemption or deferment from induction under this Act, including questions of conscientious objection.

(6) Standards for compensation and benefits for persons performing their national service obligation under this Act through civilian service.

(7) Such other matters as the President determines necessary to carry out this Act.

(c) USE OF PRIOR ACT- To the extent determined appropriate by the President, the President may use for purposes of this Act the procedures provided in the Military Selective Service Act (50 U.S.C. App. 451 et seq.), including procedures for registration, selection, and induction.

SEC. 5. INDUCTION.

(a) IN GENERAL- Every person subject to induction for national service under this Act, except those whose training is deferred or postponed in accordance with this Act, shall be called and inducted by the President for such service at the time and place specified by the President.

(b) AGE LIMITS- A person may be inducted under this Act only if the person has attained the age of 18 and has not attained the age of 26.

(c) VOLUNTARY INDUCTION- A person subject to induction under this Act may volunteer for induction at a time other than the time at which the person is otherwise called for induction.

(d) EXAMINATION; CLASSIFICATION- Every person subject to induction under this Act shall, before induction, be physically and mentally examined and shall be classified as to fitness to perform national service. The President may apply different classification standards for fitness for military service and fitness for civilian service.

SEC. 6. DEFERMENTS AND POSTPONEMENTS.

(a) HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS- A person who is pursuing a standard course of study, on a full-time basis, in a secondary school or similar institution of learning shall be entitled to have induction under this Act postponed until the person--

(1) obtains a high school diploma;

(2) ceases to pursue satisfactorily such course of study; or

(3) attains the age of 20.

(b) HARDSHIP AND DISABILITY- Deferments from national service under this Act may be made for--

(1) extreme hardship; or

(2) physical or mental disability.

(c) TRAINING CAPACITY- The President may postpone or suspend the induction of persons for military service under this Act as necessary to limit the number of persons receiving basic military training and education to the maximum number that can be adequately trained.

(d) TERMINATION- No deferment or postponement of induction under this Act shall continue after the cause of such deferment or postponement ceases.

SEC. 7. INDUCTION EXEMPTIONS.

(a) QUALIFICATIONS- No person may be inducted for military service under this Act unless the person is acceptable to the Secretary concerned for training and meets the same health and physical qualifications applicable under section 505 of title 10, United States Code, to persons seeking original enlistment in a regular component of the Armed Forces.

(b) OTHER MILITARY SERVICE- No person shall be liable for induction under this Act who--

(1) is serving, or has served honorably for at least six months, in any component of the uniformed services on active duty; or

(2) is or becomes a cadet or midshipman at the United States Military Academy, the United States Naval Academy, the United States Air Force Academy, the Coast Guard Academy, the United States

Merchant Marine Academy, a midshipman of a Navy accredited State maritime academy, a member of the Senior Reserve Officers' Training Corps, or the naval aviation college program, so long as that person satisfactorily continues in and completes two years training therein.

SEC. 8. CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTION.

(a) CLAIMS AS CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR- Any person selected under this Act for induction into the uniformed services who claims, because of religious training and belief (as defined in section 6(j) of the Military Selective Service Act (50 U.S.C. 456(j))), exemption from combatant training included as part of that military service and whose claim is sustained under such procedures as the President may prescribe, shall, when inducted, participate in military service that does not include any combatant training component.

(b) TRANSFER TO CIVILIAN SERVICE- Any such person whose claim is sustained may, at the discretion of the President, be transferred to a national service program for performance of such person's national service obligation under this Act.

SEC. 9. DISCHARGE FOLLOWING NATIONAL SERVICE.

(a) DISCHARGE- Upon completion or termination of the obligation to perform national service under this Act, a person shall be discharged from the uniformed services or from civilian service, as the case may be, and shall not be subject to any further service under this Act.

(b) COORDINATION WITH OTHER AUTHORITIES- Nothing in this section shall limit or prohibit the call to active service in the uniformed services of any person who is a member of a regular or reserve component of the uniformed services.

SEC. 10. REGISTRATION OF FEMALES UNDER THE MILITARY SELECTIVE SERVICE ACT.

(a) REGISTRATION REQUIRED- Section 3(a) of the Military Selective Service Act (50 U.S.C. 453(a)) is amended--

(1) by striking `male' both places it appears;

(2) by inserting `or herself' after `himself'; and

(3) by striking `he' and inserting `the person'.

(b) CONFORMING AMENDMENT- Section 16(a) of the Military Selective Service Act (50 U.S.C. App. 466(a)) is amended by striking `men' and inserting `persons'.

SEC. 11. RELATION OF ACT TO REGISTRATION AND INDUCTION AUTHORITY OF MILITARY SELECTIVE SERVICE ACT.

(a) REGISTRATION- Section 4 of the Military Selective Service Act (50 U.S.C. App. 454) is amended by inserting after subsection (g) the following new subsection:

`(h) This section does not apply with respect to the induction of persons into the Armed Forces pursuant to the Universal National Service Act of 2003.'.

(b) INDUCTION- Section 17(c) of the Military Selective Service Act (50 U.S.C. App. 467(c)) is amended by striking `now or hereafter' and all that follows through the period at the end and inserting `inducted pursuant to the Universal National Service Act of 2003.'.

SEC. 12. DEFINITIONS.

In this Act:

(1) The term `military service' means service performed as a member of an active or reverse component of the uniformed services.

(2) The term `Secretary concerned' means the Secretary of Defense with respect to the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps, the Secretary of Homeland Security with respect to the Coast Guard, the Secretary of Commerce, with respect to matters concerning the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the Secretary of Health and Human Services, with respect to matters concerning the Public Health Service.

(3) The term `United States', when used in a geographical sense, means the several States, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, and Guam.

(4) The term `uniformed services' means the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, commissioned corps of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and commissioned corps of the Public Health Service.
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

there sure is a lot left at the disccretion of the king--er, i mean president.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wouldn't this require a formal declaration of war, and hence a 2/3 vote from the houses? I don't think that's likely to happen, but I hope I'm right...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
SEC. 4. IMPLEMENTATION BY THE PRESIDENT.

(a) IN GENERAL- The President shall prescribe such regulations as are necessary to carry out this Act.


There hasn't been a formal congressional declaration of war since 1941.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don´t worry yet. The great omnipotent president of the US has not yet claimed the title emperor. Or has he?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The thing that worries me the most is that it is definitely a religious conflict. One side is all 'God blesses..." and the other all 'Allah is great...'.
Just replace the word terrorist with 'Islamic fighter for the Jihad' and righteous patriot with 'Crusader', it translates one to one everytime. If it were ónly about oil it wouldn't be so bad, as with commodities one can make a deal. It is way more difficult to make deals with people's believes.

The worst thing about religions is that one 'has to believe it'. When religion starts to mingle with politics people are many times 'made' or forced to believe it, even the people that do know better.
As a non-believer, simply meaning someone that tries to know for certain and is not able to adopt religious supersticion, these are sad days. Sad as history has learned that in any religious conflict the non-believers are in general 'removed from the planet' as either being heretics, witches, satanists, unpatriotic hippies or whatever. There is hardly a way to stay out of this sort of conflict.

Seems it is about time to go underground.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Though I do like a good cave, I'm staying out of the underground. No matter how bad things get it's important to me to just live my life. I can't give concessions to the power hungry because that's how they gain power. Running away is the biggest concession. The only way to be free is to live out of choice no matter what the circumstances.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rob wrote:
The thing that worries me the most is that it is definitely a religious conflict. One side is all 'God blesses..." and the other all 'Allah is great...'.
.


I am not convinced there is really a religous conflict going on.. if we speak of Iraq and the invasion. Did you by the way see that interview with general Anthony Zinni on 60 minutes?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, its hard to put any wisdom in discussions on subjects like war. I won't even try. I'm sorry I commented on this thread, only ventilating my personal opinion, as I know it is not the fashionable one. I severely hope I'm wrong in my opinion.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rob wrote:
I'm sorry I commented on this thread, only ventilating my personal opinion, as I know it is not the fashionable one. I severely hope I'm wrong in my opinion.


uhh.. but please keep it up. You might have some insight and perspective on this.

Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There has been definite religious polarization going on here lately...we've got a gung ho Christian right on the State side...I can't say much about the Muslims because I haven't been over there, but I can at least say they'll likely to be sick of Christianity and everything Western by the time (or if ever) the US gets out of there.
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