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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » ChucK programming language
A brief introduction
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Consul



Joined: May 05, 2007
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Location: Port Huron, Michigan, USA

PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 3:00 pm    Post subject: A brief introduction Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello, all! I thought I'd stop by and say hello here, since this is the forum that attracted me to this community to begin with. I've already introduced myself in the General forum.

I'm brand new to ChucK and Audicle, but I'm hoping to learn more about them and maybe integrate them into my studio and possibly even some live stuff as well. Both of these are well in the future, unfortunately, since I still need to build my basement studio, a task I hope to complete this summer.

So I guess it's time to dive into the sample code. Thanks for the cool software.

By the way, I'm really, really intrigued by Tapestrea, not the least because I'm interested in filmmaking and that program could solve a lot of problems.

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good to have you here, Consul!
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Consul



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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the welcome. I'm quite intrigued by new ways of doing things. I'm also a cheap bastard, and I don't feel like spending thousands on all of these neat softsynths that are designed to imitate equipment from 30 years ago.

In the progressive rock world of the early 70s, musicians were using analog synthesizers, the Mellotron, and the Hammond organ, not because they were all coveted instruments made famous elsewhere, but because they were the latest technology available to them at the time (yes, I know Hammonds had been around for a long time already, but they were at least still being made new). Where is prog rock today? Using analog synths, Mellotrons, and Hammond organs. In the 70s, they were using what was new and exciting, so why don't we do that now?

So, I want to see how far I get with new tools and ideas, and given that I'm a cheap bastard, how low I can keep the cost as well. I'll let you know how far I get. Smile

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

welcome Darren...

Good rant. I'm not a fan of prog rock because it doesn't seem very progressive. It was progressive when the Beatles, Moody Blues, Pink Floyd and the rest were doing it, but not it sounds like the same old same old. I live very near the Nearfest venue, but when ever I go there, this observation just gets reinforced. Still, different strokes for different folks. I'm sure that some day I'll discover some prog that really moves me.

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

He he he, I confess to having a soft-spot for some old Marilion tracks.

Re::making beats.

As you you'll have noticed; in ChucK you have to define how time advances so you actually *are* making the beats. :¬)

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i haven't done anything quite progressive around here..
i really loved a saying of one legendary musician here in Thailand..
(nickname: Poom, full name: Pongprohm Sanitwongsa Na Ayuthaya)
said to me "we all should be doing progressive musics from time to time
(apart from mass pop & other freelance job etc.. lolol) ..
but the progressive that means having to study deeper and harder,
and apply them in the works..

for example, if you want to make a fusion music with Northern Thailand folk music taste,
you must go to live with the folk musicians there and learn the way of life and how it relates to the folk music in the area.
then when you understand, you can apply..
and you can even do it without the use of the instruments from the Northern Thailand!"

i really liked how he make me understand deeper about the word Progressive.
it's like looking into Progressive as a way of working, not only the genre of music.
- - -

after i've been mangling around with csound and chuck
(now i almost stopped playing around with csound -_-"
too addicted to chuck lately -_-"..)
i've got this idea i wanna work out ..
maybe as a jam project or as a full album.
it's "Math Rock"

i'm inspired by Mathematics & Number Theory, Chaos and Fractal, Indian Classical Music..
and some sound from these artists: The Beatles, Mahavishnu Orchestra,
Sun Ra, John Cage, Bela Bartok, Charlse Ives

i hope i'll have some experiments out of this idea on ChucK soon! ..
(i'll try to cut down my alcohol consumption
coz i can feel it makes me lazy recently!)
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
He he he, I confess to having a soft-spot for some old Marilion tracks.


Marilion? Prog? Cute.. yes.. but.. Shocked

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Consul



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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kijjaz's post actually illustrates an interesting point. Back when progressive rock was new, it really did fit the definition of "progressive": It was pushing the boundaries of rock music out into areas it hadn't been before. Although Sargent Pepper is widely regarded as the album that kicked off the trend, it really took people like Robert Fripp, Joseph Byrd, and Genesis (the line-up with Peter Gabriel) to turn it into something really interesting. The amount of musical experimentation happening at the time was astonishing, and even as I hunt down obscure bands from the period, I remain amazed at how much diversity there was in the prog-rock arena.

Now, the name "progressive rock" has become the name of a genre, rather than a description of the creative process used to arrive at such amazing, and sometimes rather hard-to-listen-to, results. Although lately, there have been a few bands here and there that have figured out a balance between "progressive" as a genre and as a mindset, including a Swedish group called Liquid Scarlet and, amazingly enough after all this time, King Crimson, the one progressive band from the early days who have managed to keep their sound new and interesting through the years.

So where do I think I sit?

Well, the truth is, I currently have a head full of songs form the past ten years. Some of those are more pop, and some are more progressive in the genre sense. At this point, I really want to get those out of the way before I try to tackle new territory. That's one of the hopes I have for ChucK, is that it can help me think about music in new ways. I've tried playing with CSound, and I had a pretty difficult time wrapping my head around it. Hopefully, I can do better this time around.

I think I'll stop there for now. Smile

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Consul wrote:

Well, the truth is, I currently have a head full of songs form the past ten years. Some of those are more pop, and some are more progressive in the genre sense.


I think the main point is that you make music you yourself find interesting and essential. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kijjaz; that's not a bad idea at all. There are some "real" bands that do that as well, I saw some performances of math-inspirered hardcore (punk) that were a lot of fun.

About alcohol; I cut back as well. Neither ChucK nor the video-games I play resently (these modern frantic shooting games like Ikaruga ( http://youtube.com/watch?v=sd95jQ57_eM )) work well with it. It's much nicer to just have a single more exotic beer at the end of the evening.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Kassen wrote:
He he he, I confess to having a soft-spot for some old Marilion tracks.


Marilion? Prog? Cute.. yes.. but.. Shocked


It's a nostalgia thing. :¬)

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I'm not a fan of prog rock because it doesn't seem very progressive. It was progressive when the Beatles, Moody Blues, Pink Floyd and the rest were doing it, but not it sounds like the same old same old. I live very near the Nearfest venue, but when ever I go there, this observation just gets reinforced. Still, different strokes for different folks. I'm sure that some day I'll discover some prog that really moves me.


Been a few days since I wrote that and it has been returning to my mind. I would like to say that after more careful thinking, I would like to retract this comment about prog rock.

First, prog is a name as much as a description - maybe more so. It is absurd to judge a genre of music by the name with which it has become associated.

Second, music doesn't have to be progressive to be great. The innovation of the pioneers isn't what made their music great, it was the music itself.

So, I'm shaking off my moderately anti-prog attitude and instead opening up to appreciating it more. I love bluegrass music. People are still writing great stuff in that style. Why not prog rock? I'm all ears.

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Consul



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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd like to think there are still some new ideas that can be brought to the table. Now all I need is my bloody studio. It's taking me forever to get that thing built. I also need to learn the ins and outs of ChucK. Well, I don't know if I need to, but I think it would be worth my while.

Any good tutorials out there? Making a sinewave beep is fine and all, but I find myself not really knowing where to go from here.

EDIT: Never mind, I found some stuff. I hadn't noticed the wiki link from the main page before...

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You know, two things would make ChucK an incredible tool:

1) The ability to act as a VST plugin
2) MIDI input

Those two things, and I'd probably consider leaving the commercial softsynth world behind.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, we have MIDI input already....

Once you leave the comercial softsynth world behind VST won't matter that much anymore but I suppose that's turning your words upside down. :¬)

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Consul



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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I just want it to integrate with my DAW. I still need to record meatspace instruments and vocals, after all. Wink A VST plug-in is probably the easiest way to do that from a user perspective, though I'm open to other options. ReWire would be a possibility.

I looked over the programmer's guide, and couldn't find anything MIDI related, other than a function that converts MIDI note numbers to a frequency. What I'm looking for is something that will actually process incoming MIDI information in real time to allow me to play ChucK with my Kurzweil MIDIBoard. It's entirely possible I overlooked it, so I'll go take another look.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You're right, of cource. Lately I've had a personal issue with DAW's and their emphasis on graphical ways of working. When working with existing sounds I'll record them using a wave editor or Live, then bring them into ChucK. I experience a greater (subjective) sense of freedom in treating them that way but it's true that DAW-style transport controlls can be very usefull. It'd be a adition that would make many people happy and I expect it'll come some time, after all even Csound can work as a plugin if needed.

Back to MIDI; We do have it, you can make a softsynth, you can process MIDI into different MIDI or you can even make a MIDI sequencer or make a joypad send MIDI through ChucK. If that's not clear in the docs that should be adressed (where do you think this should be put?) It should be in the manual that came with your install (in the documentation folder) but I mainly learned it by looking at the examples, I believe there is a folder on MIDI there in the examples dir (also in your install folder). When working with MIDI it can often be helpfull to have a page of MIDI reference at hand (there are a few good ones online).

Bruce Murphy wrote a library to deal with sending MIDI more easily, there was a porper link to it, which I seem to have misplaced, but here is a list post on it;
https://lists.cs.princeton.edu/pipermail/chuck-users/2006-July/000994.html

What arguably *is* badly documented is that ChucK can deal with numbers in HEX which can make MIDI a lot more pleasant (well, less unpleasant....).

Hope that gets you started?

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm not going to say anymore, because I don't want to seem demanding. Suffice it to say, though, most home composers use DAWs, for better or for worse. If it makes you feel any better, my DAW of choice right now is Reaper, which I like because it really is a no-nonsense piece of software.

Thank you for the pointers on the MIDI stuff. I'll let you know how I get on.

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, it's fine, I wouldn't respect you any less if you rewired Cubase into Logic :¬)

To get you by; If you want something that's a part of a larger DAW based project treated in ChucK you could render that bit to WAV and render everything that's going on at the same time to WAV as well.

In ChucK you would play back both but only treat and record the first one (the second is there just to verify mix and timing) then bring the recorded result back into your DAW. It's a bit roundabout but it would work.

On Linux (and I think Mac) you could also use Jack to route between ChucK and DAW tracks and of cource a MIDI loop-back driver could be used to have one controll the other.

Not perfect at all but at least it's something. You're far from the only one who would like VST support but it'd be quite a large project to do well. I have no idea how that would deal with timing and time, for example.

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, I didn't even think about JACK. The only reason I use Windows is because Linux doesn't have the softsynth stuff that I like, but maybe that can all change now. I've used Ardour before, and was quite impressed with it overall. I suppose I could build a second computer with which to run TruePianos and Zebra 2 in Windows.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What would be realy good would be something JACK-like for Windows. At least some sound-cards (like the EMU's) have a internal patch-bay/mixer that could be tricked into working like that.

The core issue, as I see it, is that DAW and languages like ChucK work in very different ways with regard to controll. With a DAW the DAW controlls everything and sends data down to effects which in turn generate audio which can be manipulated. With ChucK the controll structure is much less of a "one way" thing, you could conceivably make a ChucK patch where the amount of volume on the output would modulate the overall playback speed.

It's not so bad if you just use ChucK for -say- filtering but as soon as you get into time-based stuff I think there are very large questions on how to make that work with the DAW's transport controlls. To me it seems much more straightforward to make VST plugins be controlled by ChucK then to have ChucK be a VST

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The closest JACK-like thing for Windows would be ReWire, which is a Propellerheads product. They're a little tighter about handing out the header files than Steinberg are about VST, from what I understand.

As for the other thing... Well, it depends on what one wants to do. I'm more interested in live control of what could be the ultimate programmable softsynth, so for me, ChucK as a VST plug makes sense. If I were using ChucK to makes beds and loops and the like for building on top of, then I would program what I want and just render it out to a wave file for import into a DAW.

Again, though, if I can make Linux and Ardour a part of my life, this may all be moot anyway. I'm an experienced Linux admin in my previous life (which was some time ago), so knowledge is not the issue. Availability of software is the issue. There are just so many free and cheap VST plugs out there that are fantastic.

It's enough to make me wish I were a hotshot coder so I could just do it myself as a contribution, but right now, I couldn't program bash scripts without looking up syntax rules.

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rewire is a fun idea (as is VST, truth be told) but I'm not so into the master-slave idea that stuff implies, maybe because I started with modulars.

Anyway, let's get down to business because we don't need to solve the world's problems with regard to Windows and sound, just yours.

Let me get this straight; you want ChucK to behave as a softsynth for realtime usage and controled through a DAW? If that's it then I think making your CK files work with MIDI and using a loop-back driver will do the trick. This is asuming your soundcard can output audio from both at the same time (note that right now ChucK only does DX and not ASIO) and asuming that the CPU will hold. This leaves the issue of recording a performance once your're happy with it. The best option I see there right now would be making ChucK itself generate a .wav and importing that to the DAW. Still a bit workflow-breaking but at least it's fluid while composing; you could easily overdub takes of generating controll envelopes/ move notes/ copy-paste blocks of controler data.

Involving a second computer, maybe running Linux to get rid of Direct Sound latency, would make the whole situation similar to using a hardware synth with your DAW, that might be good too.

I kinda got out of the "oh, look, new plugin" game because in the end it wasn't making me much hapier but yes; there are plenty of wonderfull VST's and many are quite cheap (some of the best are free). I still like Tassman a lot. Now that we are talking about it anyway; with Tassman (which works perfectly fine as a VST) I'm still not 100% happy with the way modular systems intergrate with DAW's. Maybe teh colision of philosphies is worse then some of the incompatibilities.

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What I really want will probably never be implemented, but I love the idea of a software synthesis system based on a programming language rather than an arcane interface. I also like the workflow of traditional recording methods, and the organic feel of playing real instruments alongside synthesized ones. DAWs are second nature to me anymore, especially Reaper.

I think someone mentioned Puredata can act as a VST plug. I never played around with Pd, so maybe I should look into that.

As far as the VSTs go, it's not just instruments, but also some really nice reverb and EQ plugs and the like that are freely available, none of which exist in the Linux world. Plugs like SIR, ParisEQ, and NyquistEQ are very powerful free plugs that have no equal on the Linux side. (Well, Freeverb3 has convolution now, so Linux appears to have a nice reverb at any rate.)

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Aren't there more Linux convolution reverbs? I imagined there were, convolution isn't hard to implement at all, I think you could do a ChucK convolution reverb (poor cpu!).

Anyway, you are quite right about effect plugins, there was a phase-linear eq as well, I like plugins that do stuff that you can't get otherwise.

So; what is this thing you want that will likely never be implemented? Is it something like this; http://csounds.com/stevenyi/blue/ ?
Blue is kinda like a cross between a multitracker and a framework to put code in, I could imagine something like that being a part of the Audicle in time, it seems like a good idea.

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