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 Forum index » Discussion » Diversity in electro-music
Oh dear, I guess I look at things oddly...
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ark



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:10 pm    Post subject: Oh dear, I guess I look at things oddly... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...because my first thought, on seeing the title of this forum, was: "Oh good! Mabye I can find a place where people will talk about music that isn't in 4/4 time!"
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seraph
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

that's odd indeed...odd time Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, it depends on who´s on first?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh dear, I guess I look at things oddly... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ark wrote:
...because my first thought, on seeing the title of this forum, was: "Oh good! Mabye I can find a place where people will talk about music that isn't in 4/4 time!"


I rather llike 4/4 Cool

Last piece was in 4/4

Edit:

but I also like violating it and ambigifying it Wink

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Try the composing section. Indeed, you'll get some fish to bite in there Smile Other than the lung fish and the hot air they blow here Smile Smile

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BTW: My Abbot and Costello above kinda foggily refers to a rather foggy band rehearsel in 85. The drummer and the bass player could not agree on where to find the first... Shocked well.. and it went downhill from there..
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:32 am    Post subject: Re: Oh dear, I guess I look at things oddly... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ark wrote:
...because my first thought, on seeing the title of this forum, was: "Oh good! Mabye I can find a place where people will talk about music that isn't in 4/4 time!"


No, no, no, no, Ark. There's no need to put your odd-time signature pieces here because strange as it may seem those don't make anybody insecure. If you'd post a challenge for people to make a "proper" four-on-the floor house track, now THAT would be a thing to pre-emptively post here.

Things that belong here as well;

*any talk on women as a "minority" (remember that they are only a minority as long as you don't talk about being attracted to them).

*initiatives to encourage concepts like "Asian electronic music" (all the better if you never hear any and whatever you do DON'T mention the major manufacturers of electronic instruments are all Asian).

*any sexuality that's not straight&monogamous (but please make sure it does have a label, if it doesn't you may want to make one up and raise "awareness").

*add your own. If in doubt picture your topic in a US sub-urb. If it seems out of place there it's probably a fine topic for this section.

I hope that helps.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"Spem in Alium" by Thomas Tallis- a 16th Century English 40 part motet sung in polyphony is roughly based on 4/4- so what's the big deal? Shocked Laughing

You don't like dance music is what you are really trying to say??

Personally I like 4/4! (as well as 6/8, 5/4, 7/8, 13/11 Shocked)

Listen to Tallis' Spem in Alium here
Crying or Very sad Very Happy Crying or Very sad Very Happy Crying or Very sad

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
13/11


watch your language

Twisted Evil

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Laughing

I dunno- me and my brother worked out that parts of Aka-Darbari-Java by Jon Hassell must have been in 13/11. Truly strange rhythms Shocked

Superb LP btw! Perfect for all long hot summer evenings Cool Cool Cool

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have a hard time playing that. I keep counting to 1.178 instead of 1.18181818.. before staring a new measure. Throws all my band-mates off every time. At least it becomes a lot more intuitive to me if you re-write the parts in 6.5/5.5

I stopped using that sort of archaic notation, BTW. Since I got into sequencing circularly it become a lot more expressive to notate in pi. So, if you have a house beat with 8 steps to the loop the time-signature is 2pi/8, asuming we take our circle to have a radius of 1.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yes...in a time sig, the bottom number really only has bearing on how it is notated. since almost no one i know writes with "proper" notation, i think it's about as relevant as spelling has to a verbal discussion.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh dear, I guess I look at things oddly... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
ark wrote:
...because my first thought, on seeing the title of this forum, was: "Oh good! Mabye I can find a place where people will talk about music that isn't in 4/4 time!"


No, no, no, no, Ark. There's no need to put your odd-time signature pieces here because strange as it may seem those don't make anybody insecure. If you'd post a challenge for people to make a "proper" four-on-the floor house track, now THAT would be a thing to pre-emptively post here.

Things that belong here as well;

*any talk on women as a "minority" (remember that they are only a minority as long as you don't talk about being attracted to them).

*initiatives to encourage concepts like "Asian electronic music" (all the better if you never hear any and whatever you do DON'T mention the major manufacturers of electronic instruments are all Asian).

*any sexuality that's not straight&monogamous (but please make sure it does have a label, if it doesn't you may want to make one up and raise "awareness").

*add your own. If in doubt picture your topic in a US sub-urb. If it seems out of place there it's probably a fine topic for this section.

I hope that helps.


Sniff, Sniff. Do I smell sarcasm Question Question Exclamation
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liquidpaper



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

oops, quoted the wrong post.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh dear, I guess I look at things oddly... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
ark wrote:
...because my first thought, on seeing the title of this forum, was: "Oh good! Mabye I can find a place where people will talk about music that isn't in 4/4 time!"


No, no, no, no, Ark. There's no need to put your odd-time signature pieces here because strange as it may seem those don't make anybody insecure. If you'd post a challenge for people to make a "proper" four-on-the floor house track, now THAT would be a thing to pre-emptively post here.

Things that belong here as well;

*any talk on women as a "minority" (remember that they are only a minority as long as you don't talk about being attracted to them).

*initiatives to encourage concepts like "Asian electronic music" (all the better if you never hear any and whatever you do DON'T mention the major manufacturers of electronic instruments are all Asian).

*any sexuality that's not straight&monogamous (but please make sure it does have a label, if it doesn't you may want to make one up and raise "awareness").

*add your own. If in doubt picture your topic in a US sub-urb. If it seems out of place there it's probably a fine topic for this section.

I hope that helps.


you know, i'm going to speak up here. some of us DO have a need to talk about things like being female, being non-hetero, or being non-white. i'm guessing by your icon and previous posts that you are a heterosexual male. please correct me if i'm wrong. while you maybe in a position of being able to esoterically reason all of this away and suggest that anyone who wants to discuss these things is simply flawed in their thinking, some of us feel differently. when i tried to start a thread to promote discussion with other lgbt people or women, the whole first portion of it was filled with you talking about how there's no need for that discussion, DESPITE THE FACT THAT YOU YOURSELF SAID YOU AREN'T A MEMBER OF THOSE GROUPS. so the discussion was almost derailed by a heterosexual male.

i was interested in having a discussion centered around people who are experiencing some of the same things i am. this forum has got to be 80% male. it's natural to want to connect with others that are like you.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh dear, I guess I look at things oddly... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

liquidpaper wrote:

i'm guessing by your icon and previous posts that you are a heterosexual male. please correct me if i'm wrong.


You're wrong.

I have never claimed to be heterosexual, in fact I have stated many times I don't believe such terms have any real meaning. In fact I have argued that we don't even know what "sex" as a word means.

I don't believe in gender roles and I don't believe in race.

If you have to know, I'm pale due to not liking the sun that much, this largely hides the rather diverse background of my ancestors. (I'm not going into how diverse as that would be tasteless in this context).

I'm currently in a monogamous relationship with a girl but have had other forms of relationships (it would be tasteless to list those here now)

I also have a penis (which I'm not telling you more about).

I don't feel this makes me a "heterosexual white male", I recognise you can stare at my avatar and fantasise and I can't keep you from doing so but I do find it offensive that you want to base such conclusions partially on my avatar.

Based on your avatar I might as well conclude that you don't exit, by that logic.

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while you maybe in a position of being able to esoterically reason all of this away


Nothing esoteric about it though right now the position is indeed a traditional one for monks. That's just because I like to sit on the floor.

Quote:
and suggest that anyone who wants to discuss these things is simply flawed in their thinking,


I don't know about "flawed", I just disagree. I also feel misunderstood.

Quote:
some of us feel differently. when i tried to start a thread to promote discussion with other lgbt people or women, the whole first portion of it was filled with you talking about how there's no need for that discussion, DESPITE THE FACT THAT YOU YOURSELF SAID YOU AREN'T A MEMBER OF THOSE GROUPS. so the discussion was almost derailed by a heterosexual male.


No, I didn't. In fact I seem to remember I expressly identified as "questioning" which was a option in that topic, something you are now covering up.

I never said there was no need for such a discussion, in fact I believe I have been a strong champion for open debate on sexuality and how it may affect musical practice on this board. The thing I am opposed to is fencing off a section for people who are somehow "non-normal" according to entirely arbitrary standards.

I feel a discussion on working with women and non hetreo-normative people in DIY education belongs in the DIY section. If feel a discussion on "gay house music" belongs in schmooze.

This is because I find this "diversity" concept to be incredibly judgemental, much like I (and some other editors) found the "women in EM" section to be very sexist.

If addressing the effect of cultural perception on the sectioning of this forum is "derailing" then guilty as charged. I am quite happy with my attempts to derail this phenomenon, not just on this forum but also where it concerns society at large. Even here in the Netherlands it could stand a good deal more of derailing.

Quote:
i was interested in having a discussion centered around people who are experiencing some of the same things i am. this forum has got to be 80% male. it's natural to want to connect with others that are like you.


It is. It's also natural to want to connect to others who are different from you. I don't think I found somebody "like me" on this forum yet but I have high hopes as that would be fun as well.

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liquidpaper



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

you know, i just read back on this, and i realize i was too hostile. i apologize, kassen. i appreciate your input, and i hope i didn't give you any negative feelings. i was putting my idea across too harshly.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's fine. I realise where it came from.

The kind of thing I believe you were referencing is a very real phenomenon but I hope you see now that's not my perspective in the slightest. I also see now that I should've been more clear up front that the perspective I'm talking from is very different from (what I think is) yours. Attitudes towards these matters are very different amongst Dutch artists/musicians/squatters (the context I live in) then they are in more general US culture (the context I think you were addressing) so even if we are striving for very similar goals we may talk about those in wildly different terms and ways.

I think there are many people that are -in various ways- very insecure about their own sexuality and indeed sexuality in general which they often try to cover up with a rather judgemental attitude which leads to polarization. As I think I mentioned above; the whole idea of having words for various sexual orientations seems to have come from a desire to sort "normal" from "non-normal". This leads to words like "faggot" but also to words like "breeder"; I think the polarisation works both ways, at least to some degree, which I think is a great shame.

These categorisations do have some use at times but they are also limiting. As a illustration; I might self-identify as a musician or a bicycle rider but that this moment I'm not doing either. On one level those would be ok labels for me, on another it's not all that clear what those words mean here and now at all. It's not like I will never draw or take a tram, for example, maybe at some point in the future I'll even decide I do want a driver's license for a car or motorcycle. I feel it would be limiting to myself to apply those labels in that way and it might be worse if I'd start assuming every self-identified cyclist would be opposed to cars or -worse yet- somebody who's reckless in traffic (a stereo-type I think some people have).

Still, on the other hand I do think my approach to music has some ties to my enjoyment of being in closer contact with the road while riding a bike and I could imagine that being a interesting topic for debate here.

I hope that gives you a better idea of where I'm coming from here.

take care,
Kas.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks for your patience, kassen. i really appreciated it and evidently needed it just then. while i've been to the netherlands for two short periods of time, i've never lived there, so i can't offer much of a perspective about things there. however, it seems like moving there might increase my level of sanity.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I was losing my patience a bit there because I don't want to be associated with the kind of thing you seemed to think I was doing or expressing and frankly there is little foundation for that either.

I think the Netherlands are on the right track; basically anything between consenting adults is legal here, same sex couples can marry and adopt kids if they'd like and most of the public is fine with openly homosexual politicians and media celebrities. It is in fact illegal here to discriminate on that basis.

That being said we aren't nearly "there" yet and many people are borderline forced to hide their preference in situations like corporate culture. This too is slowly changing with -for example- a large chain of supermarkets electing to have certain TV spots targeted at couples of men but there definitely some remaining bastions of hetro-normative and sexist thinking.

At times the Dutch laws lead to amusing situations in practice. Just a few days ago I read about a case where the "commission for equal treatment" ruled that the largest Dutch feminist magazine wasn't allowed to discriminate based on gender when trying to fill a vacancy for a new writer. I thought that was quite funny but I do agree with that commission that male writers might be just as feminist as female ones.

Relatively "sane" I'd say but far from "perfect".

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Well, I was losing my patience a bit there because I don't want to be associated with the kind of thing you seemed to think I was doing or expressing and frankly there is little foundation for that either.


understood. i also agree about the male writers, partly because if they aren't allowed to be part of some feminist thing, it means the women are left to do all the work as far as solving problems that stem from sexism. and that would never work anyway - a viable solution could only come from everyone's work and input, not just one segment of the population.

although now that i think about it, i think they should only be required to hire men if they use public money. if they are paying for it themselves, they should be able to hire (or not hire) whoever they please. if some male group payed for themselves and decided they didn't want to hire women, it should be allowed. but if women are forced to help pay for it (through taxes, for example), then a male-only hiring policy shouldn't be allowed. i don't know if groups that exclude are a great idea, but i guess other people should be able to do it privately.

i don't know if you've heard of the citadel, but it's a public military college in the u. s., and they've come up with a particularly perverse way to remain all male while still using women's money to pay for their crap. they simply make it intolerable for a woman to go there, because of hazing, humiliation, abuse, etc. one woman was actually set on fire by her male classmates. so while women are legally allowed to attend, no woman in her right mind would go there. i don't think any man in his right mind would go there, but that's just me!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Returning to the main topic:

Electronic instruments have an excellent capability to create songs in other signatures than the obvious 4/4.
In fact, anything goes. (In fact, the whole /4 or /8 notation use becomes quite irrelevant)
In the electronic environment, the Indian model of using 'cycles' is probably much more convenient.
When using a sequencer or a tracker module it's more clear to express a unit in time as a repeat of n steps.

Some examples :
A basic cycle of 11 : Dodoing
A basic cycle of 37 : No Fever
A basic cycle of 9 : Oude tijd

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

liquidpaper wrote:

i also agree about the male writers, partly because if they aren't allowed to be part of some feminist thing, it means the women are left to do all the work as far as solving problems that stem from sexism. and that would never work anyway - a viable solution could only come from everyone's work and input, not just one segment of the population.


Right, I agree but I also feel many women are buying into society's image on gender to such a degree that I'd call them more sexist then many men.

Quote:
although now that i think about it, i think they should only be required to hire men if they use public money. if they are paying for it themselves, they should be able to hire (or not hire) whoever they please. if some male group payed for themselves and decided they didn't want to hire women, it should be allowed.


Well, it isn't. They aren't required to hire men as such, they just can't close the job application process to men. This would be discrimination based on gender which is in fact illegal here, regardless of who pays for what.
Of course if I would have -say- a club and I'd need a big bouncer I would likely end up with a man because men tend to be bigger and stronger then women on average but I couldn't turn down women based just on them being a woman. Like-wise; jobs like verifying the printing process of stamps and similar things tend to only employ women because women on average are much more precise in such monotonous jobs BUT there too they can only hire based on being precise while doing a monotonous job which isn't the same as gender, even if it's strongly linked statistically.

This is simply how the law works here and I stand behind that, Practically speaking this doesn't lead to huge issues because who is to ever prove the editor of this magazine wouldn't select based on the criteria she claims to select on, then hire a woman but the principle stands. I think it's based on one of the first articles of the constitution.

Quote:
but if women are forced to help pay for it (through taxes, for example), then a male-only hiring policy shouldn't be allowed. I don't know if groups that exclude are a great idea, but i guess other people should be able to do it privately.


No, this is a commercial magazine. Once you set your rules like that you'd quickly have "white only bars" and so on. Of course people find ways around that, for example making their bar a "members only club", obfuscating the process for admitting members to the club and so on but strictly speaking I think that too is illegal, it would just be impossible to prove.

The ruling here, BTW, was based on men being equally able to be feminists, according to this commission, it would be different if for example, a man would apply as a model for Playboy, I think. Even in The Netherlands that last example sounds far-fetched... Maybe there too the process would need to be sorting applications on "what will sell magazines" which just so happens to be closely linked to gender but not the same... Perhaps. I'm no lawyer. The point is that these rights go quite far, for example, I think men are entitled to pregnancy leave if their female partner has a baby, a right I support as well. There has been talk of re-instating the draft and if they would I feel that too would have to mean drafting women into the military as well but somehow that was a exception back when we still had a draft.

Quote:
i don't know if you've heard of the citadel, but it's a public military college in the u. s., and they've come up with a particularly perverse way to remain all male while still using women's money to pay for their crap. they simply make it intolerable for a woman to go there, because of hazing, humiliation, abuse, etc. one woman was actually set on fire by her male classmates. so while women are legally allowed to attend, no woman in her right mind would go there. i don't think any man in his right mind would go there, but that's just me!


He he he. I was a bit disappointed with this magazine myself. I'm strongly in favour of "feminism" in the context of working towards equal right and chances for men and women and I myself feel this "no boys allowed" thing works against that, I think they should lead by giving a good example.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sam_Zen wrote:
Returning to the main topic:


I am personally of the opinion that it would be a great shame to reason "non 2^n time signatures are unusual in western modern popular music and should hence be in the "diversity section". For one thing that would make the rest of the forum quite impractical to maintain (because so many things under debate here are unusual).

How about picking "composition"?

I'm just suggesting this because ATM this is becoming a mess with two wildly different topics getting intertwined.

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Sam_Zen



Joined: Mar 08, 2008
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Location: NL

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yep, you're right. Sorry for this.
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