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 Forum index » Reviews, Editorials and Commentary » Commentary and Editorials
Net music piracy 'does not harm record sales'
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seraph
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:12 pm    Post subject: Net music piracy 'does not harm record sales' Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Internet music piracy is not responsible for declining CD sales, claim the researchers behind a major new statistical study.


Felix Oberholzer-Gee at Harvard Business School in Massachusetts and Koleman Strumpf at the University of North Carolina tracked millions of music files downloaded through the OpenNap file-trading network and compared them with CD sales of the same music.


The music industry frequently claims that illegal file-trading is responsible for reducing legitimate music sales. The industry says this argument is the reason for their legal campaign of suing individual file traders over the past year.


However, the researchers conclude: "At most, file sharing can explain a tiny fraction of this decline."

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994831

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paul e.



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

wow that is really interesting

so it begs the questions..

what is causing the decline in sales... Question

and why are the record companies so intent on keeping people from file sharing.. Question

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My theory is that overly high prices are a primary reason for declined sales...I bet CD's would sell better if there was a standard maximum cost of $10-12 for any single disc album. I often see CD's (anywhere from brand new pop to old obscure music) priced as high as $18 or more Confused
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zynthetix wrote:
My theory is that overly high prices are a primary reason for declined sales...I bet CD's would sell better if there was a standard maximum cost of $10-12 for any single disc album. I often see CD's (anywhere from brand new pop to old obscure music) priced as high as $18 or more Confused



you know, that makes al lot of sense...and quite simple to remedy

i wonder though...sometimes i think the novelty of CD;s wore off and perhaps the 16/44khz sampling rate was in fact too low and don;t sound very good

also, unlike what was claimed, they scratch very very easily

i have also had a lot of cd players die on me after 1 year

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seraph
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sudden wrote:

you know, that makes al lot of sense...and quite simple to remedy

would you elaborate on that Question
thanks Very Happy

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seraph
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:37 am    Post subject: Illegal downloading is not a problem Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.electronicmusicworld.com/article.php?id=14

It seems the big record companies don't care about illegal downloading. How I come to this conclusion? They don't give a shit about people not being able to download music legally............

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
sudden wrote:

you know, that makes al lot of sense...and quite simple to remedy

would you elaborate on that Question
thanks Very Happy



it would be fairly easy for the record companies to just lower the price of a CD

and if zynthetix is correct, that should increase overall sales

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Kinetic P.M.



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

They whine about illegal downloading to save face to share holders .because there gluttony (Extremely high CD prices)is driving down the sales . Scape goats is what there trying to turn pirates into (why do I right(write) like yoda when i'm faded and posting).

KPM

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seraph
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kinetic P.M. wrote:
(why do I right(write) like yoda when i'm faded and posting).

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Very Happy

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Greggy



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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I know I stopped buying cds when the prices got out of hand. And then when I heard that the artist wasn't the one raising the prices that basically put a lock on my wallet. Now, they want to come down on file sharing is like a nail in a coffin. Why would I care about them when they certainly have shown they don't care about us. G (-:

ps It has also been pointed out that this could have been steered a long time ago by making music legally downloadable for a reasonable price. In a sense they hung themselves.
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Artists who sell CDs here get a very healthy percentage of the sale price.

Arguing that you download music illegally because artists don't get a big enough piece of the action for CDs is very efficient use of both sides of your mouth. Confused
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paul e.



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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

agreed mosc

at the risk of over-simplification

two wrongs do not make one right

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play



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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

however there is a big difference between buying a CD at your local electro-music.com store and buying one at best buy or Tower. I don't personally download music that can be bought at best buy because I think it's all crap. Anyway, we have to draw the mental line between indie labels/distributors/stores and big businesses in order to really discuss how file sharing effects the industry as a whole.

I haven't seen any articles anywhere saying that independent labels object to file sharing of music (has anyone?). Some may, I dunno. My personal view is that in general it's better for small labels who would otherwise not get very much exposure. Decentralized distribution gives the little guys a chance.

This leads into my main point which is that the "declining CD sales" argument is a red herring perpetuated by the RIAA to hide their deeper concern which is the little guys. Decentralized distribution is baaad for big business. When people can find what they want easily and get it without a hassle then control leaves the hands of the marketing people and goes to the hands of listeners who's wants are diverse and unpredictable.

The indie scene is not a threat from big labels' point of view as long as it's only catering to niche markets like noise or hardcore or contemporary orchestral, etc. Now it's getting to the point where each indie label is indeed ony serving a small niche market but there are so many of them and they are so varied that one can find a small label that releases exactly what one has a taste for. Contrast this with big labels' tendency to promote stereotypes, repetition, cliche and monoculture. How are they surviving at all? The only thing that gives the big ones an edge is that they are established, meaning entrenched in the media and they have lots of money for lawsuits.

Now more and more people are spending less time in front of the tv being told what they want and more time on the internet looking for what they want. We're seeing the death throws of a paradigm. If pirating music will hasten the fall of big businesses than I say go for it. Buy from electro-music and that coffee shop down the street that sells vinyl, or whatever. Share new music from little labels with your friends so that they know it exists and then they'll buy it, if they like it. Basically, file-sharing may hurt small labels a little bit but more so it helps it by spreading the word and hurting big business.

e.out
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dmosc



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry to drag an old thread up...

I have two points to make.

1) Microsoft recently got so frustraited with their sales in the far east and russia due to at least 50% piracy rates that they lowered their prices and released a stripped down (no english, 100% the same except for the language files). version for ~$30 and it's improving their income. Cause everyone knows it doesn't take $30 a copy to make the world's worst operating system, bundle in a bunch of bugs and call them features, and burn a cd. I'm saying if pirating were really a major issue to CD labels, they wouldn't be selling CDs at $20 a pop from artists who can't do more than curse and yell. How many pop songs these days are written for the artists? They don't even need to play an instrument, just have a minimally decent voice and a big pair of t**s. I'd also bet that the creative ones composing and recording don't see a penny of your CD purchase.

How bout somebody blame declining CD sales on the death of creativity (save this hollow of weirdness)!

2) This became very clear to me after a recent trip to the movies to see I, ROBOT (a VERY suprisingly deep and well thought out movie). You actually get something for your CD purchase, decent sound quality! A 4mb mp3 of music that actually has things like dynamics, a wide variety of pitches, and multiple semi-melodic lines sounds horrid.

Compare this to a movie theatre. They had this unbelievablely clear digital projector they used for the adds and then the second the movie came on, it's back to a scratched up film with white spots flickering all over every few seconds. They're so afraid of putting the movie on a digital format that we are forced to suffer through horrid quality. Why are the adds I didn't pay for at twice the resolution of the movie I splurged on?

It's not just about supporting the little local store vs the big corporation, it's about which CDs actually deserve 10mb a minute and which ones sound just fine at 1/20th that rate.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good points.

In order to sell music CDs, you have to market them. That costs quite a bit of money. That's why our independent music CDs don't sell very many - limited marketing. If a major record label goes out and does big promotion and then cuts prices, they may not make any money. In the IC (chip) business there was a running joke. "We loose money on every chip we sell, but we make it up in volume."

I saw the I Robot movie with Dmosc yesterday. During the tedious 1/2 hour of commercials prior to the movie, there were several mini music videos to promote CDs. No, there were no Xeroid Entity clips. Anyway, it must cost big bucks to place a 1 minute advertisement in all those theaters. Think what you would have to pay Clearchannel to play your music.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ves.. good points. Some labels have already lowered their prices. There should be at least one post here regarding that issue.
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redskull



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fact:

It costs approximately 15 cents (u.s.) for a record company such as Sony Music to manufacture ONE Disc. This includes packaging AND shipping, because of volume discounts they receive. My cousin's wife works for the manufacturing house of a major record company and a subsidiary; and has shown me concretely that this is true.

Therefore, paying $16.00-$19.99 for a cd is PIRACY against the American Consumer. I speak for my own local scene, and cannot relate to Europe or the like, but here, I defy that notion that downloading music is piracy. I would rather equate such behavior with being FRUGAL! Laughing

I have only within the past year or so actually SOLD CD's of my work, because of my stuff is freely available to download online, BY MY OWN HAND, and I make enough money from the sales to live comfortable, happy, and secure. So all those billion-dollar underwear wearing morons need to sit down and shut their greedy little probosiscs
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mosc
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Red Skull, you are a professional musician? You support yourself off of your music?
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redskull



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Partly by that (mostly locally and around texas) and my writing (my book has been doing well for some time now).

I also have been known to mess with school dances (dj gigs) and occasionally someone will comission a song for little gatherings etc (car clubs and the like).

I also am financially meticulous Very Happy
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egw



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What's the book about?
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redskull



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My Poetry, a complete collected works type thing Wink

On another note about supposed "internet music piracy":

I have,on at least 3 separate occasions, met or heard employee's of major music retailers (Best Buy was 2 of those encounters) which "borrow" stocked cd's and mass copy them. This appears to be a growing epidemic from the major chains, all the way down to mom n pop underwold records inc...I think that should be a focus point for all those suits rather than Americans who are in all reality, truth be told, exposed to larger musical markets via the net than they are attempting a profiteering coup against corporate zealots...

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

redskull wrote:
I think that should be a focus point for all those suits


Absolutely... thumb up

Sueing the "little people" will be as effective as "shock and awe" was in stopping terrorism.
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paul e.



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

redskull wrote:
Fact:

It costs approximately 15 cents (u.s.) for a record company such as Sony Music to manufacture ONE Disc. This includes packaging AND shipping, because of volume discounts they receive. My cousin's wife works for the manufacturing house of a major record company and a subsidiary; and has shown me concretely that this is true.

Therefore, paying $16.00-$19.99 for a cd is PIRACY against the American Consumer.



it may cost 15 cents to manufacture a CD, but it costs a lot more to produce/market/distribute a CD than 15 cents

but i agree, they are too expensive

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Right, there is more to it than just the cost for the actual CD.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well in regards to the direct cost of making one to selling one, that is the budget for Sony itself. Marketing has nothing to do with how they price their cd's. We are talking about Sony for godsake Laughing Marketing is an investment in the promotion of a cd, not the cd is the promoter of the marketing. When a cd is done and out, the marketing factor has been factored in, and the bills are all out on the table, unless you are jacked by them.

All i know is, to pay more than $10 for a cd is the same thing as paying $100 for a car wash by a crippled blind deaf/mute...
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