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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Questions about vintagezing
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sebber



Joined: Aug 27, 2004
Posts: 461
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 2
G2 patch files: 32

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:07 pm    Post subject: Questions about vintagezing Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello everybody,

so, here's some questions that linger in my mind for quite a long time now. It's all about making the synth warm, or old, or vintage or whatever. I read up some stuff and so, basically it's irregularities on the old machine and toning down the octave between 10 and 20 khz.

Now, as far as irregularities go: I wonder why I see so little use of the shape oscillators. I see saturator modules in feedback loops and other stuff, but doesn't starting right at the beginning and using slightly offset waves be the first step? Sounds like a rant but it's actually a question Smile

Secondly, the toning down: I realize that old analogue circuits just couldn't go this far up. Well, how about new analogue circuits? Would they have that problem now, too?

Thanks for enlightening me. It's getting darker and darker, some enlightening is in order.

Cheers
seb

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Lfohead



Joined: Jul 29, 2009
Posts: 274
Location: Sweden
Audio files: 6
G2 patch files: 26

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Questions about vintagezing Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sebber wrote:
Hello everybody,

so, here's some questions that linger in my mind for quite a long time now. It's all about making the synth warm, or old, or vintage or whatever. I read up some stuff and so, basically it's irregularities on the old machine and toning down the octave between 10 and 20 khz.

Now, as far as irregularities go: I wonder why I see so little use of the shape oscillators. I see saturator modules in feedback loops and other stuff, but doesn't starting right at the beginning and using slightly offset waves be the first step? Sounds like a rant but it's actually a question Smile

Secondly, the toning down: I realize that old analogue circuits just couldn't go this far up. Well, how about new analogue circuits? Would they have that problem now, too?

Thanks for enlightening me. It's getting darker and darker, some enlightening is in order.

Cheers
seb


I wouldn't worry about any of that, if you ask me just waste of time..
I'd rather think is this the results i want?

There is alot of " soft synths out there " which claim to have a analog sound, most of them ive seen if not almost all have recording of analog gear oscillators from which they've implemented a 1 cycle recording for each waveform.. And yet they claim to be non-rompler synths (sample synthesizer)..

Me personally i would go with a soft synth thats fully software synthesis than one which claims analog sound.. Not only is it more truthful but it gives software the chance it deserves, and sounds much better than some noisy sample..

Once again, don't waste waste time thinking about stuff like that.. Just focus on getting the sound you want.. I was a bit hasty on purpose to say; The above.. Because the first question you should ask your self is.. " Do i know what sound i want ? " Many times people come to realize they don't -

and it's just random tweaking..

Some basic guidlines i've made for my self is:

1. What do i want exactly?
2.Do i really know what i want?
3.Do not bring idea closer to the results, rather than bringing the results closer to the idea.
4.Once i have followed the above truthfully, the only answer left is i am lacking some understanding.
5. What is it? Learn it, and start over again..

Sorry if this isn't the answer you expected, but this my few cent i can give..
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sebber



Joined: Aug 27, 2004
Posts: 461
Location: Berlin
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G2 patch files: 32

PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks, Lfohead, for your long answer. As much as I agree with your point in general, some knowledge about machines is necessary to become a good patcher. I would compare it to instrumental technique, just like a teacher would tell a student to hold the violin bow like this and this and then the sound gets better. http://www.electro-music.com/forum/topic-7237.html&postorder=asc is a good read, for example, telling me something about the specifics of digital systems and my ears and how to work with them. So, this is not about analogue vs. digital but simply about good sound, I totally agree with you here.

I'm currently redoing (restaurating?) a piece by Bernard Parmegiani for tape and three synthesizers. It's from 1980 and was written for a Synthi AKS, a Roland System 100M and a Yamaha CS-40M. The piece has not been played for 30 years now. Re-patching the sounds on a digital machine sometimes sounds better, sometimes worse. Whatever better and worse means and whoever can say what better and worse is. Anyway, when I though the original sounded better it was most often their imprecise waveforms which changed the sound the most, e.g. when going through a ring modulator. And I just wondered why I've never seen using the Osc Shape oscillators for mimicking analogue circuits.

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Electromagnetic Wave



Joined: Apr 28, 2013
Posts: 116
Location: Kebek
G2 patch files: 18

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I do not consider myself as a analog specialist but I'll just add my two cents.

I remember the first time I tried to replicate the moog filter with an Access Virus tutorial. It explained how the resonance moves automatically when you move the cutoff. Each synthesizer has its secrets. I think it is better to focus to the architecture of a synthesizer, one by one.

Quote:
basically it's irregularities on the old machine and toning down the octave between 10 and 20 khz.

Quote:
using slightly offset waves be the first step?


I like analogue sound but I don't like detuning OSC. (I speak for myself). Normaly I only use 1 OSC (for lead, bass).... but irregularities is not only about OSC tuning.

From another topic :

Quote:
add a very slight random to filter settings and envelope times to mimic the richness of analog polyphon synths...

http://electro-music.com/forum/post-245489.html#245489

mono monster!
Quote:
The sync scheme to keep the oscillators within a bank in proper locked phase has been improved. These properly phase locked oscillator outputs match what many analog multiwaveform VCOs produce and can be crossfaded to create unique timbres that you cannot normally get from any of the G2 oscillators.

http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=analog&t=9258



Some good reading :

Echo Drone (more about self-oscilating filter and other stuff)
http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=analog&t=14832

Trying to emulate a Minimoog saw
http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=analog&t=28861

AnalogHeaven
http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=analog&t=9838

'analog' experiment
http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=analog&t=9854

Tri/Saw/Square and Moog Voyager-style wave morphing
http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=analogue&t=34351

Warming the G2's sound
http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=analogue&t=26450

and other that you've probably already read :

Spectrum tilting
http://electro-music.com/forum/post-46613.html#46613à

Vintaj Polysynth
http://www.electro-music.com/forum/topic-34509.html

Oscillator Warmth Circuit
http://www.electro-music.com/forum/post-245900.html
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sebber



Joined: Aug 27, 2004
Posts: 461
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Actually trying to do the exact same thing looks like this:
http://recherche.ircam.fr/pub/dafx11/Papers/99_e.pdf

That's really not my thing. I was just wondering why I don't see the Shape Oscillators used more often, especially when patching "analogue" style patches. E.g. Roland Kuit's Minimoog emulation in Laboratory of Patching does not use Shape Oscillators although I'm pretty sure that the Minimoog does not have such nice clean oscillators as the G2 has.

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Electromagnetic Wave



Joined: Apr 28, 2013
Posts: 116
Location: Kebek
G2 patch files: 18

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I remember that the Shape Oscillators are bugged on the software demo and on old G2 OS but this is probably not the main reason.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure that the Minimoog does not have such nice clean oscillators as the G2 has.

You are not the only one to focus on this :
Quote:
The oscilloscope shows a perfect saw for the G2, and a rounded one for the Minimoog

From (as I posted before) : http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=analog&t=28861

This topic from Tim Kleinert is interesting too :
WaveDraw Oscillator
http://www.electro-music.com/forum/topic-25309.html

Moog waveform comparison :
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/238994d1307475809-one-you-synthmasters-help-us-out-waveform-comparison.pdf

I can not say why we do not use shape oscillators but Im sure other topics are refering to edit waveform.
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Vader77



Joined: Nov 19, 2010
Posts: 28
Location: Death Star

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I find running thru a decent tape simulator helps especially the UAD Ampex.
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