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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
totally noobular inverter question
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Joined: Feb 02, 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:27 pm    Post subject: totally noobular inverter question Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

When used in it's simplest form, does an inverter do just what it suggests? ie: if you input an "on" you output an "off", and vice versa?

It seems many of us start by pushing these things to do OTHER than what their basic logic design was.

If not, what DOES do this?

Ie: if you feed a clock in, you get that clock inverted 180 on the output?

in: _|¯|_

out: ¯|_|¯

???
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adamon



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You are correct: a high input will result in a low output, and vice-versa. This should make sense if you think about the "other" ways we use inverters: if an inverter is feed back on itself, it will just keep inverting itself, and when paired with an r-c time circuit, the time defines the frequency of the oscillation (resulting in our beloved oscillator!).
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DGTom



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this is one time where I think 'hard wiring' can be usefull.

Take a 4040 & 2 40106s, hook all the 4040 outs to the 40106s. Now you have a "beat divider" where all the divisions line up.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DGTom wrote:
this is one time where I think 'hard wiring' can be usefull.

Take a 4040 & 2 40106s, hook all the 4040 outs to the 40106s. Now you have a "beat divider" where all the divisions line up.


Was this meant to be in the 40106 oscillator thread? Laughing
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DGTom



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Laughing either / or

its inversion specific tho, first time I'd used the 40106 for what its "meant" to do.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah, I see... I get it actually. I was thinking it had to do with the oscillator octave levels thing, but now I see you are actually talking about hooking 404 into 40106, not vice versa...

So then I am actually wondering, what does the output of the 40106 inverters offer as an advantage vs. just taking the outputs of the 4040 straight? Ie: how does inverting them help?
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DGTom



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

if you think about how the 4040 divides;

10101010

becomes;

00110011
00001111

& so on. By inverting the outs you turn;

10101010

into;

11001100
11110000


so all the 1s line up at the start of the "bar" which is why I kind of think of it as a Beat Divider. Input a fast clock & you can just grab outputs to do straight 4/4 drum patterns: of course its more fun to use these outs to feed muxes & logic & whatever else.

what I really like about the 4040 is that it can do such long counts, so you can get right down to bars, combined with logic you can make patterns which change over 1/2/4/8 bar cycles.
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electri-fire



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DGTom wrote:
Input a fast clock & you can just grab outputs to do straight 4/4 drum patterns


From the Datasheet:
" CD4020B, CD4024B, and CD4040B are ripple-carry binary counters. /.../ The state of a counter advances one count on the negative transition of each input pulse."


Is this "counter advancing on the negative transition" the reason to invert every 4040 output? To keep them aligned with the clock input? Seems like a very drastic measure to me.

Two easy alternatives come to mind:
Use one inverter to just invert the clock going into the 4040.
Or, easier still: ignore the clock being out of phase. All 4040 outputs still have their 1/2/4/8/.../ relationships.

If you run the clock at double speed and leave the clock signal unused, the fastest output from the 4040 will take over the "desired" clockspeed function but be phase aligned with the rest of the 4040 divisions.

Excuse me if I misunderstood your intention.
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DGTom



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I actually invert the incoming clock so that in use its positive edge triggered.

But, thats seperate - I generally use such fast initial clocks that the phase would be irrelevant as the 'master' clock would never be used alongside the divisions.

Inverting the outputs of the binary counters makes them high "on the one"

This blog post explains it quite well;

http://navsmodularlab.blogspot.com/2010/03/patch-tips3-analogue-digital-logic.html

altho in a differant context, the key part is the illustrations.
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electri-fire



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah thank you DGTom, now I see what you achieve by inverting the outputs from the 4040.
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