electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Articles  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links  |  Store
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Phasers, HELP PLEASE
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: Nord Modular Editors
Page 1 of 1 [11 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
iPassenger



Joined: Jan 27, 2007
Posts: 1051
Location: Sheffield, UK
Audio files: 5
G2 patch files: 78

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:24 am    Post subject:  Phasers, HELP PLEASE Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Last night I spent a good few hours trying to recreate the sound of the Phaser from the FX section using either the Phaser Filter, a phasor constructed from the State Vairable filter in allpass mode and manually constructed all pass filters.

My results were pretty disappointing.

Phaser filter:

I got the closest with this but there is a smooth smearing of the sounds present in the one from the FX block (on setting II) that I can't seem to get right, no matter what I set things too or how I sweep the filter. Even tried sweeping the spread as well a bit to see if that was somehow related. But I think the difference is in the way the filter is actually filtering or perhaps has something to do with how the feedback is implemented.

All Pass Filter from SVF:

This was terrible in the main, i can get things that sound phasey but its just not the same.. Either I am not making them right or the all pass filter in the SVF (band pass output on 6dB) mode isn't right at all. Any thoughts?

Home brew All pass filter (made from the low pass modules):

Again it's just not right, can anyone help me to understand exactly how a proper all pass filter with feedback should be constructed? And how several of these should be arranged in order to make a phaser.

I would really love to make my own phaser that sounded as good as the one in the FX section (or better perhaps) but it just isn't happening, can anyone help?

Cheers in advance

Ross

_________________
iP (Ross)
- http://ipassenger.bandcamp.com
- http://soundcloud.com/ipassenger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Roland Kuit



Joined: Sep 29, 2003
Posts: 1091
Location: The Netherlands/Sweden
Audio files: 8
G2 patch files: 127

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I pm-d you.
_________________
Roland Kuit
----------------------------
composer|research|synthesis|sound design|lecturer
http://rolandkuit.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
iPassenger



Joined: Jan 27, 2007
Posts: 1051
Location: Sheffield, UK
Audio files: 5
G2 patch files: 78

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Roland and I have spent quite some time messing with these but were still not getting the smeared filtered sound that the Phaser FX on setting II produces. He has however provided some pretty cool effects as a taster of his SLII.

Anyone else got any ideas they would like to share? Or is it just not really possible?

Alternatively can anyone explain to me the typical wiring of an analog phaser and maybe then I can work on that basis? I know it has something to do with all pass filters... But I am not sure how they are arranged (series, parrallel, how does the feedback work etc etc..)

When I create these (All pass filters) manually in the nord everything above the cut off frequency ends up 180 out of phase and everything below is in phase, with points around the cutoff at various points in between. Is this the right behaviour? How many poles should the all pass filter have (more or less)?

Cheers

Ross

_________________
iP (Ross)
- http://ipassenger.bandcamp.com
- http://soundcloud.com/ipassenger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Roland Kuit



Joined: Sep 29, 2003
Posts: 1091
Location: The Netherlands/Sweden
Audio files: 8
G2 patch files: 127

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This 1 comes far. Implemented I and II:


Roland Kuit 2+1 Phase I&II test.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  144.71 KB
 Viewed:  2931 Time(s)

Roland Kuit 2+1 Phase I&II test.jpg



_________________
Roland Kuit
----------------------------
composer|research|synthesis|sound design|lecturer
http://rolandkuit.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Roland Kuit



Joined: Sep 29, 2003
Posts: 1091
Location: The Netherlands/Sweden
Audio files: 8
G2 patch files: 127

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You can replace the 2 Notch phaser with 2 DelaySingle B modules. Tomorrow I'll post a pic.
_________________
Roland Kuit
----------------------------
composer|research|synthesis|sound design|lecturer
http://rolandkuit.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
ian-s



Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 2576
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Audio files: 42
G2 patch files: 609

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here is something else to play with though I can't seem to tweak it to match. It uses Rob's allpass sections from his 'massive phaser' patch.

Looking at the spectrum of the FX version, seems to be just 4 or 6 stages for the Type I and Type II.

So you can use any of the phase filter, 6dB multi mode, or Robs. You get 1 notch per pair of allpass sections.

There is another type of allpass based on a delay line but it is a different animal. Used in reverb stuff.

The difference in character is there before feedback it seems to me.

The classic phaser is just cascaded allpass signal mixed with the input. A 50:50 ratio gives the deepest notch.


diy_phaser.pch2
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  diy_phaser.pch2
 Filesize:  2.55 KB
 Downloaded:  330 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
iPassenger



Joined: Jan 27, 2007
Posts: 1051
Location: Sheffield, UK
Audio files: 5
G2 patch files: 78

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks folks, plenty to chew on here. Smile
_________________
iP (Ross)
- http://ipassenger.bandcamp.com
- http://soundcloud.com/ipassenger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
iPassenger



Joined: Jan 27, 2007
Posts: 1051
Location: Sheffield, UK
Audio files: 5
G2 patch files: 78

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ian-s wrote:
It uses Rob's allpass sections from his 'massive phaser' patch.



Do you have a link to this? i couldn't find it in the patch archive.

_________________
iP (Ross)
- http://ipassenger.bandcamp.com
- http://soundcloud.com/ipassenger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Roland Kuit



Joined: Sep 29, 2003
Posts: 1091
Location: The Netherlands/Sweden
Audio files: 8
G2 patch files: 127

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice Ian. I know this cascading filter trick. Here the pic as promished.
I had send Ross a pch op-amp filters-phaser. Just to experiment for fun.
Wicked.


Roland Kuit Comb I&II 2A.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  180.49 KB
 Viewed:  2736 Time(s)

Roland Kuit Comb I&II 2A.jpg



_________________
Roland Kuit
----------------------------
composer|research|synthesis|sound design|lecturer
http://rolandkuit.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
ian-s



Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 2576
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Audio files: 42
G2 patch files: 609

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

iPassenger wrote:
ian-s wrote:
It uses Rob's allpass sections from his 'massive phaser' patch.



Do you have a link to this? i couldn't find it in the patch archive.


it is here
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
iPassenger



Joined: Jan 27, 2007
Posts: 1051
Location: Sheffield, UK
Audio files: 5
G2 patch files: 78

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for posting these I did have a quick play with them and managed to get pretty close. I've not had a thorough mess building my own yet though as i have been busy with another project.

I think the stack of the two filter/mixer arrangements (in series), combined with the feedback signal containing a mixture of the input and output was what I was missing.

Smile

_________________
iP (Ross)
- http://ipassenger.bandcamp.com
- http://soundcloud.com/ipassenger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: Nord Modular Editors
Page 1 of 1 [11 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
e-m mkii

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from
our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use