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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » g2ools utilities
nm2g2 converter and the NM1 User Lib...
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3phase



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:28 pm    Post subject: nm2g2 converter and the NM1 User Lib... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi...
As you have seen ..The nm2g2 patch converter of Mr qfinger ( what probably refers to quick coding skills.. Wink reached its 1.0 state..
And as i tested it i can say that its probably good enough to have a run on the huge userlib of the NM1..allowing the G2 having access to that legacy of the former nord modular community.
Somehow reuniting a bit what has been splitted thru the format conflict between Nm1 and G2...

However.. I want to bring up the question what to do with this Nm1 lib that has idled on the archive pages for the NM1 for quite some time now...
Its the legacy of the nord modular community..and therefore owned by it..
Or at least owned by the community of the authors that parcitipated.
So as was decided in the rules of the former mailing list..its ment for free not commercial access for all nord modular users...
That was the intention of the patch collection that build up by posting patches to the mailinglist and therefore sharing them or the ideas involved with other users. Some activists collected them all, put them in folders related to the authors and made them all available an a basic webpage as reference. I think namely Wout Blomers was involved in that.

That is the classical NM1 lib as we know it...

At later points some people tryed to make commercial use out of this lib by building categorized sub libs..
Destroing the relation of author/patch in favor of a soundcattegory/patch format this way.
A handy thing for some people, a bit offending for the creators of the patches..and the following discussions were pretty hard...

The nm community pointed on their right on the patches and that they never was intended to be sold by a private person...

The seller/categorizers pointed on the amount of work they spend with sorting the patches and that they sell this sorting effort and not the patches...Actually a point..but don't overrides the rights and intentions of the patch creators...

So a compromise was made..The categorizers offered to put their sub libs on the archive page aswell while continuing/stopping their buisseness..
What was rendered pretty useless anyway by making them publicly available for free...

Why do i mention that all? Because the old lib for a discontinued synth is about becoming a new lib for an actual one..And we might face the same discussion again.

So i suggest that we discuss what shall happen with the lib in public..namely here...

I personally wouldn't be against having it on several places..
This is preventing commercial use better than hiding it somewhere..
As more mirrors..as less commercial abuse of public domain things..
Thats my opinion..others might have others...

But..independent from that there is one point that i feel is important.
I want to preserve the spirit the patches we are talking about was created in.

I would like to see the original libary transferred as a whole 1:1 with all the authors folders intact...

Because thats what this patch exchange was about..various authors showed their ideas, discussed technical problems, just throw a nice one in...It always had a relation to the Author...
And the patches showed personality from that author.
It never was intended to build a convenient lib that gives you 100 anonym bass sounds by hand for quick and anonym use. It was about patching styles.

I would like that to be preserved. For political correctness..but..
Its also more convenient browsing by authors and finding a good one..with a variety of good sounds..Thats is much more inspiring than browsing 100 anonym and mostly bad bass sounds..

However.. one opinion.. And also a question how this all can be technical realized...

extra webpage? integration in the phpbb structure of this forum?
own subforum just for work on the lib? booth?
which lib gets converted? the original? the categorized?
or booth? or just the original ones and having the categorized as search metas? who can set this all up? Would others spend some work in making the lib accessible? Or has everybody just a private conversion thanks to the achievements of Matt Gerassimoff that made his conversion software publici available?

I don't have the resources to do much for bulk converting and installing a lib on the net... But i suggest that we as the userbase are managing it somehow before some commercial sharks start selling 10000 G2 sounds on CD...

So ???
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varice



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Too late! I have already listed my 10,000 patch CD on ebay. Not only did I spend great effort on the conversion from G1 to G2, but I have also mutated each patch so that it contains seven new personally selected variations for which I now claim copyright! Laughing
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3phase



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

very funny ..har har

The problem is not single sells on ebay..it would be a problem if the big commercial sound sellers with worldwide distribution put such items in theier program..what i would see as rip off..

The best way to prevent that is to make the converted libary as freely availible than the unconverted one..

There are however not so many G2´s out there so it wont be the big buissenes anyway..

But there is another reason to have the Lib in public..
It makes the instrument more attractiv..and i rather see the G2 a living platform with eventually another update by Clavia...

So as more attractive the G2 apperas as better for all users..

Therefore..
Lets bring the converted Lib up somewhere... Just the question where,how ,who?
As i said i dont have the resources to bulk convert the patches..i could put them on a webpage ok.. why not.. but i rather would do that with my own patches.
So where shall we put the conversions?
There are really nice sounds in there..the G2 benefits a lot with the access to the old lib.
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Fozzie



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't see these patches getting ripped of by companies that sell soundsets, simply because I've never seen NM or G2 soundsets for sale anywhere and if they existed, I think they would sell next to nothing of these.
I think it would be nice though if the converted lib ended up somewhere, preferably near the NM lib. To me, that would retain most of the reference and spirit of the NM lib. It might even lead some G2 users to some of the nice old 'interesting threads' (or whatever were they are called) where they might encounter some of the original discussions.

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think we all agree such an archive should be freely access able to everybody. Most G2 owners know the way to the archives and the amount of owners will never be that big it will be the efforts worth to exploit it commercially.

The only question is... who will convert it...?

Collecting the archive took me about five years. The largest bulk was the Yamaha conversion (BTW not completely right, because the Classic wasn't a replica of the DX7; the G2 is...)

At the moment collected about some 2500 Patches more, which are not in the archive yet.

I haven't worked with the Python program yet, so I can't over see the amount of work...

I will suggest:

I install a new computer running the archive and the conversion program
I'll convert all the archives by name, except the Yamaha archive.
Qfingers tries to create a conversion NordLead > G2, so it can be included also (nice for G2X owners)

It will take more then a year, I can imagine...
On the fly I could clean up the Interesting Threads too. (Not the workshops, which has to stay in the Classic format, I think)

I wonder how the Python User Interface works...

About the Yamaha archive we have to think about it, because the creators were no participants of the NordModular Classic List at all...
Should there be just one conversion (Yamaha > G2) or two (Yamaha > Classic > G2)?

BTW above remarks are only questions, not demands Smile

Wout
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3phase



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
It will take more then a year, I can imagine...
On the fly I could clean up the Interesting Threads too. (Not the workshops, which has to stay in the Classic format, I think)

I wonder how the Python User Interface works...

BTW above remarks are only questions, not demands Smile

Wout



As what i heard from the author of this awesome conversion program the complete conversion is a question of hours...not a year Its just a question which version of nm2g2 should do that conversion... because it wouldnt be good if different conversion versions would float arround...
This is a 1.0 release and it works fine but i guess there must be a few bugs..at least i think its slightly to early to run the complete conversion..
But its a question of days..maybe a week..
Would be good if more people would look for bugs..
What actually most succesfull can be done by people that own booth machines... All things that can be seen with the eye are elliminated long ago..it just can be little things ..
But in a modular patch a little thing can cause a big difference as we all know...Just you dont get thats a bug aslong it still produces sounds...
You need to compare sonical to the original...

However... I guess the conversion itself can be done by everybody with a fast computer and phyton skills within a few hours...
The question how and where to represent this patches is another question..

I actually think it would be good to have it close to the original lib...
But i also would think a special page for the converter and associated software projekts would be a good place...
Maybe booth..I think it wouldnt hurt to have at least 2 locations for such a huge lib..
I think most important and beneficial in this is the promotional factor for the G2. For my personal work i dont need the old lib..even when there are some great sounds to find...
And therefore this should be brought up soon..a year more sounds like converting them by hand..
As what i understood its possible to just convert them with all folder structures in one go.
So if we really want it could be ready today...
I vote for doing it quickly before all the music fares start...and it wouldnt hurt to give the info to other electronic music related media aswell...
The nordmodular is less popular than it should be in my opinion..
I would like to do something about that..now
not in a year


EDIT...
not to be understood wrong... i dont want to pressure that in a way that everything is done tomorow..but i really see the G2 getting of the shops and i personally reallylike to see another update... Anything that helps the image of the G2 will help to see such an update..therefore i would say the lib should be up somewhere before the month ends...
Just to proove that the converter is not academic.
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qfingers



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Since I wrote the library and have run it on 10000 patches, I can do the conversion of the whole collection. Under linux and a little scripting, it should take about 3 hours for the whole archive, if everything works out. What I don't want to do is maintain it. I will be happy to rerun it each time and even write scripts to help were necessary. So I can do the grunt work. What I don't want to do is create the web pages and make the decisision (just be part of making them). It was so fun collaberating with 3phase that I want to do it more.

I can get the initial patch collection converted. That part is simple. I would like to create 2 archives, one that was the source with all the .pch files, and one that contains only the .pch2 files. The rest of the files will be intact so people don't have to waste disk space and download time for the collection being twice as big as it needs to be. I can probably also write a script to use one of the other collections (or directory) that have the patches categorized. I'm thinking this could just be a text file or web page within the collection. I have written scripts that generate HTML pages so this is something I could do as well. The HTML generation routines can also generate text files so they can be in both formats.

This stuff is simple for me to do. I just don't want to be the head maintainer. I will release all these created scripts so if I can no longer work on it, someone else can take up the maintainance of it. But I was looking for another project to work on. This seems like a possiblity because it will not take much of my time.

Plus, if there are bugs I discover on my converter during the process, they can be addressed as well.

q
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qfingers



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
The only question is... who will convert it...?

I suggest me.

Quote:
Collecting the archive took me about five years. The largest bulk was the Yamaha conversion (BTW not completely right, because the Classic wasn't a replica of the DX7; the G2 is...)

At the moment collected about some 2500 Patches more, which are not in the archive yet.


I can work on several projects at a time so, maybe the DX7 converter may be more useful. for this.

Quote:
I install a new computer running the archive and the conversion program I'll convert all the archives by name, except the Yamaha archive. Qfingers tries to create a conversion NordLead > G2, so it can be included also (nice for G2X owners)


One big thing for the NL2 convertion is a set of tables for envelope times, lfo rates, modulation amounts is required. With that the conversion is easy. The tricky part (and I thing necessary), is using variations to group like patches together. Or if the emulation is close enough to allow all parameters for the setup within a variation.

Quote:
It will take more then a year, I can imagine...
On the fly I could clean up the Interesting Threads too. (Not the workshops, which has to stay in the Classic format, I think)


It depends on what you want. I can get an initial convertion done probably in an evening.

Quote:
I wonder how the Python User Interface works...


Python has support for about 10 or more different GUI libraries. My preference is PyQt which is GPL and available for all platforms. It has a rich set of existing widgets. qt which is a library that PyQt uses has a GUI builder. So I would suggest you read up on those.

Quote:
About the Yamaha archive we have to think about it, because the creators were no participants of the NordModular Classic List at all...
Should there be just one conversion (Yamaha > G2) or two (Yamaha > Classic > G2)?


I'm not sure what to do about that one, unless the libraries you have contain that sort of information. Maybe that's a project for someone else.

q
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Fozzie



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

IIRC, the NM1 user lib contains quite a few pre-v3.03 patches, wich will therefore not be converted. However, I remember there used to be an automatic v2-->v3 conversion app somewhere (online, was it?). Wouldn't it be a good idea to make a 'clean' v3.03 NM1 lib first, before converting it to the G2?
Wout, do you remember this version-conversion software and do you know whether it can do batch conversion?

Or was it a v1-->v2 convertor? I can't remember well and can't find it either.

Anyway, if there aren't too many pre-v3 patches there, please ignore this post.

PS: I would like a DX7 convertor, but have very little skills and dx7-experience to offer....

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3phase



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

qfingers wrote:
Quote:
About the Yamaha archive we have to think about it, because the creators were no participants of the NordModular Classic List at all...
Should there be just one conversion (Yamaha > G2) or two (Yamaha > Classic > G2)?


I'm not sure what to do about that one, unless the libraries you have contain that sort of information. Maybe that's a project for someone else.

q


The converted DX lib just is the one availible on the internet and dont has many good sound s in it...

The good libarys for the dx7 was all comercial and not many of this sounds got available on the internet..probably because the DX 7 was obsolete allready when the Internet became a factor...

The real gems of the Nm1 libary are within the work of the Nm1 owners that participated on the old mailing list.
Its more important to convert them because thats the legacy of the Nm community ..not the dx 7 patches.
I would think that should be seperated..especially because yamaha can be a problem..they are too big..they only dont care when they dont know..
Clavia never fullfilled theire anouncement to bring up the DX7 lib for the G2...probably for a good reason.
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Fozzie



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
I would think that should be seperated..especially because yamaha can be a problem..they are too big..they only dont care when they dont know..
Clavia never fullfilled theire anouncement to bring up the DX7 lib for the G2...probably for a good reason.


I agree this should be a separate project. I don't see what Yamaha could do against it if a converter was made. Copyrighted patches are something else, of course.
However, especially since the clavia DX patches are not good IMHO, I think it would be great to have a converter. I am an absolute beginner in heavy FM stuff and therefore find it hard to use these modules in my patching. If there would be more interesting patches as starting points for experimentation (or just simple use & mutation), that would be nice. I guess there is a lot of www available for dx7 patch hunting...

This is of course just my own very private, humble and self-motivated opinion....

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3phase



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i owned 4 dx 7 and still have one taking dust... the best sounds i ever got was on a little atari disk... much better than anything i found on the internet...for some reasons its pretty hard to find decend dx7 sounds...

that actually reminds me that the best place for them to be found is old commercial studios..not the internet...
problem is that the usually will be on atari disks...
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
Clavia never fullfilled theire anouncement to bring up the DX7 lib for the G2...probably for a good reason.

Only a matter of time and resources.
Most DX Sysex is free on the internet. Create a converter and don't ask money or sell it.

Wout
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

About the NM-Cl lib. It's not updated yet. There are some two and a half thousand Patches more. BTW not all Patches are made by the community. There were also 'independent' sound designers, who published on the Net and were intergrated into the archive.

All Patches are V3.03. I ran the all through Jan Punter's (Blue Hell) PatCon tool! No V2.10 anymore.

I have all DX Sysex still on my computer, collected from the Net. I never made any Bulk Dump from any DX machine, even not the VHX-1 Smile (I could have done this easily in the collection of the museum, but I never did) The responsibility for this open source lies IMHO by those who published it in the first place. What will be done with it is beyond Yamaha's reach... As long we make no money selling it!

At the moment Blue Hell has my complete archive on his hard disk, which is been zipped, so... anything there for a help at the moment? Can Jan sent all 27 000 Patches to qfingers?

I would say to leave the the DX conversion in it under it's own name (FM for Christmas).
Leave these two categorized libs in, as special archives, not in the main archive. Just see these as how two members of the community has lurked through it all.

About emulations. I suggest to make a real DX conversion (Axiom or in this converter). A special archive for the NordLead2 (which makes the NM-CL converted Patches out), so there will be some Prophet V patches too Smile

I suggest to keep the Interesting Threads to the Classic, if written so. Newer Threads, written to the G2 will be G2, of course...


Wout
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3phase



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:

Most DX Sysex is free on the internet. Wout


some of these files are the official yamaha libary ..that is not free..others are variations of that..or worse ...beginners sounds...

But there are some good ones..this one is from the yamaha lib..i think part of the initial factory set...transferd to the nm1 by Wout...
to the G2 by nm2g2.py...

but... it was good that i checked it..found a little bug with the multistage envelopes... and ther seems to be another ..the sweep in the end sounds different... actually booth machines are different to the original DX sound where the rise is a nice sounding one...maybe a direct converter would be better...
lots to investigate

we have to do test convertions...
am i the only one with booth machines?


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3phase



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In the original nm1 pactch there are oscilators with FMB input...
maybe thats the difference...

i guess it is... so another table FmB to FM lin is needed or is there a better suited oscilator in the G2?
the sound is however identical exept the sweep when you hold a note..
I however like the nm2g2 version..has something like the THX sound a bit Wink
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3phase



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

was good that we talked about the dx sounds..there needs to be something fixed ..we need a fmb model or find the aloike setting in the exsisting g2 modules..i guess there is one...but which?

However.. I ve to keep V1.0 of nm2g2.py..its awesome what nice sounds it creates out of standard DX7 patches..the grand piano sounds like the soundtrack for a chinese horror movie Smile
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Fozzie



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
All Patches are V3.03. I ran the all through Jan Punter's (Blue Hell) PatCon tool! No V2.10 anymore.......

...I suggest to keep the Interesting Threads to the Classic, if written so. Newer Threads, written to the G2 will be G2, of course...


Wout

Ok, I didn't remember correctly, I see. Good that everything is V3 already.

About the Interesting Threads; I did not want to propose to have them incorporated in any way into the converted archive. It might just be a nice extra if G2 users would run into these when they search/browse/look for the new archive; just because they're listed on the same webpage (or something similar). They are there to be read, right? But nothing special should be done from my perspective.

By the way, is the patch collection here on EM http://nm-archives.electro-music.com/010_NordModular/013_Patches_Zipped/ the same as the one you're talking about? That would be an easy download I guess for anyone who will be doing the actual conversion.

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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've been very busy vacationing and other stuff lately, so I haven't been keeping up with all this great work on the patch converter. My hat is off to all of you doing such great work.

I think there are questions as to where to house converted patches, software and the like. Of course, we can set up whatever is necessary here. Please don't take my lack of activity on these topics as a lack of interest.

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
am i the only one with booth machines?

Of course not Smile
But I'm not a computer wizard!
I have to work on that python thing...
Blue Hell is willing to help me out in the near future.

Wout
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fozzie wrote:
By the way, is the patch collection here on EM http://nm-archives.electro-music.com/010_NordModular/013_Patches_Zipped/ the same as the one you're talking about? That would be an easy download I guess for anyone who will be doing the actual conversion.

It's about 90% of todays archive.

Wout
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3phase



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
3phase wrote:
am i the only one with booth machines?

Of course not Smile
But I'm not a computer wizard!
I have to work on that python thing...
Blue Hell is willing to help me out in the near future.

Wout


I am not a computer wizard either ..i just helped the computer wizard by constantly comparing the results of the conversion with the sound of the Nm1 and finding some solution and tables for certain problems...
In the end it turns out the any untested module makes problems..
the control signal smoother is not correctly translated for example as i just found out...
its littel things now but the need to be all found to guarantie a quality conversion...
It s no toy..its a serious upward link for the Nm1..so it have to be as detailed as possible...

So any reported problem found quickens the finalisation of the program..
I guess that mr qfinger can spend endless time on this projekt..so when he next time finds time to work on the program there should be a as complete buglist as possible...

I found 4 bugs sofar in the 1.0 release..all from smaller nature ..but in a modular patch even small changes can have big fx at certain points..
for example the wrong oscilator in the fm patches.....on some sounds its still fine on others with heavier fm amounts the result is a total different sound.
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qfingers



Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Posts: 183
Location: Tucson, AZ
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm planning another release after the dust settles. If you guys are ok with daily or weekly releases, I don't have a problem updating the code when I have time. The currently list of bugs agains 1.0 is not very big and most of them are easily solvable. I usually code on my laptop in front of the television when I'm not working, playing with the kids, spending time with my wife, working on other projects. I was going to give it a couple of days to discover any other issues and maybe do a release this weekend. I spent the entire week between Christmas and New Years fine tuning. Then last week with 3phase (it was great), more fine tuning. I haven't had time to test the sound of the patches on my G2X because I was busy fixing stuff. Well maybe this week I can hear the fruits of my labor. I have to take your work on the sound because I don't have an NM1 (yet). I'd really like to get my hands on a NM1 rack with the expansion. There's one on ebay for $600 if anyone's got the cash. It over in a day. I'll have to wait a bit.

Anyways, enough of my rambling. I think this is going to be a fun ride.

q
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Blue Hell
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Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20526
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 147
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:

At the moment Blue Hell has my complete archive on his hard disk, which is been zipped, so... anything there for a help at the moment? Can Jan sent all 27 000 Patches to qfingers?


Oh, I didn't realize I had such a treasure, good I didn't erase it (just kidding).

I made a 145 MB zip, I left out the the interesting threads and the zips (otherwise it would have been around 450 MB). But it does have the categorized patches as well.

I'll not publish the URL here as that would probably overload my computer and my communications line, but when the person(s) that's going to do the concersion send(s) me a PM I'll send that person(s) the URL - in the hope the URL will stay a bit of a secret.

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Blue Hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20526
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 147
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
In the original nm1 pactch there are oscilators with FMB input...
maybe thats the difference...


Probably yes, but the FMB is a compromise as Yamaha did not actualy use FM at all but PM (1)... so to do it right would requiere another model than was used for th NM Classic, and a different conversion directly from the DX7 to the G2.

(1) see http://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/MIDI/DOC/phase-mod , for instance.

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