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All Musical Samples Must Be Paid For
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zynthetix



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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2005 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Civil disobedience or parody? I recall that copyright laws do not apply in the context of parody as it is free speech. (i.e. making a carbon copy of microsoft's website's look and feel but making a humor-mock of it.) Could a musician use samples of major label material and claim its parody? Or would that require the courts to determine what is funny or not?
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2005 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

THis does not work in all countries.

In the US there are some precedence on what works and what is still uncool to do. I think Howard posted something about this somewhere.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zynthetix wrote:
Or would that require the courts to determine what is funny or not?


Actually, in the case of the 2Live Crew´s cover of "pritty woman" the (U.S.) court speciffically ruled that parody in this sense does not need to be funny at all, merely having the intend is sufficient. Sadly this ruling was made after the infamous "Negativeland V.S U2's label's legal department" case.

IANAL.

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chuck



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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Perhaps this is slightly OT.

How do I find out who gets the money for the samples? Specifically, I recorded a NPR show (from a Los Angles station) and now want to use some of the phrases from an interview. How do I get clearance for that?

And in general, how do I find out who to pay for samples gleened from released CD's?

Thanks

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Write to that station or to the publisher of the cd?
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deknow



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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

remember, if you are licensing a sample from a commercial cd that there is the publishing copyright (the music and lyrics in abstract) and the mechanical (the actual recording). in many cases, these are held by differant people/entities, and permission has to be granted from both in order to use a sample (but only the publisher if you are going to record the music/lyrics yourself and not use a sample).

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¬a]e o|¬e



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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Twisted Evil BURN cpopywright BURN Twisted Evil

at the core of our human nature lies a basic instinct : imitation
through imitation we learn language and most things in life
sampling is a form of this , as we tried to emulate original sounds through synthesis we soon found out that natural sounds are far more complex than a synth could recreate (with descretion ovviously)sampling changed that and opened doors ...without it .. well lets not go there .

because of this i think no one should ever be sued for it ..exept if they make money out of, by this i mean personal NOT the amount spent in making the vinyll or cd
and they should split it say a percentage for the amount of time it takes up in its specific freq spectrum in the tune or something like that anyway

sampling will help music and our understanding of many other things to come...... think of neural sampling where a circuit could learn the eq and specific freq of your favorite tune and apply all those setting to your chosen sounds and then mutate the patch darwin style...the possebilety'z are endless.

blah blah yes i'm ranting ... but i have a point.

because it's part of our nature part of our identety to copy our enviroments so we can adapt for a better future our freedom of sampling is part of our freedom of speech and free will etc..i'm sure you american have the right to protect that with a gun...

by restricting sampling our cultural rights to celebrate the society that we live in are infringed .

music is music... is rahzel gonna get sued for beat box sampling breaks cuts and famous lirics and bass lines?..(i can't tell the difference sometimes with him... the mans bad.)

... blah blah yes i'm done


i am aware of all flaws in my argument i can't be arsed to speak any longer obout this....

oh by the way mp3 downloading "GET OVER IT"
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

¬a]e o|¬e wrote:
Twisted Evil BURN cpopywright BURN Twisted Evil
at the core of our human nature lies a basic instinct : imitation


Good point, if it wasn’t for our basic instinct to copy each other, we would probably all still be sitting on that rocky sea shore, wishing we could get the meat out of those bivalve molluscs.

Imagine a world without sampling? I don’t have to, I was there. It wasn’t all that bad. People still copied each other though.
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Stanley Pain



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

roflmao

i love musician forums discussing law. it reminds me why the music industry has one lawyer for each musician. because musicians haven't got a clue when it comes to law.

law is most often executed on precedents, not absolute truths. hence why we have two sides to an argument and impartial juries that make a decision on each case.

law is not black and white and it will never be about exactly how much you can or can't sample, how or why or any of those. personally, i reckon in an argument like this you pick which side you are on (i am pro-sampling and i believe you shouldn't be paid if you haven't done any of the work on the medium) and stick with it.

it's all in the balance of probabilities. never underestimate someone finding out exactly where you got a sample from, no matter how obscure.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:

Imagine a world without sampling? I don’t have to, I was there. It wasn’t all that bad. People still copied each other though.


Can I ask how old you are?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

¬a]e o|¬e wrote:
Twisted Evil BURN cpopywright BURN Twisted Evil


How elloquent.

Quote:

at the core of our human nature lies a basic instinct : imitation
through imitation we learn language and most things in life
sampling is a form of this ,


Teritorial behaviour and sex-drive are also at our core, this does not excuse murder and rape.

Quote:

as we tried to emulate original sounds through synthesis we soon found out that natural sounds are far more complex than a synth could recreate (with descretion ovviously)sampling changed that and opened doors ...without it .. well lets not go there .


You should get a new synth. What you are saying is only true for the decades between the invention of tape manipulation and the coming of age of digital synthesis. I´d place that last point with Xenakis and Roads developing granular synthesis and re-synthesis, in my eye the point where digital synthesis broke free of being the bastard son of the telcomunication´s busines´s engineering department.


Quote:

because of this i think no one should ever be sued for it ..exept if they make money out of, by this i mean personal NOT the amount spent in making the vinyll or cd


Did you ever read Euler´s mathematic proof for the existance of God? It´s quite interesting and I think it will apeal to you. It doesn´t require any math over highschool level.

Quote:

and they should split it say a percentage for the amount of time it takes up in its specific freq spectrum in the tune or something like that anyway


So, if I pad the end of my song with a few weeks of silence and give it a small dc offset that will signifficantly decrease the amount of royalties I´ll need to pay since I increased the spectrum with some octaves?


Quote:

sampling will help music and our understanding of many other things to come...... think of neural sampling where a circuit could learn the eq and specific freq of your favorite tune and apply all those setting to your chosen sounds and then mutate the patch darwin style...the possebilety'z are endless.


This has been possible for decades and I fail to see how it relates to copyright.

Quote:

blah blah yes i'm ranting ... but i have a point.


"Indeed" and "I´d be delighted to hear it", respectively.

Quote:

because it's part of our nature part of our identety to copy our enviroments so we can adapt for a better future our freedom of sampling is part of our freedom of speech and free will etc..


Those parts of sampling that relate to free speech are protected indeed.

Quote:

i'm sure you american have the right to protect that with a gun...


Which presumably explains the amount of shooting in the rap scene.....

Quote:

by restricting sampling our cultural rights to celebrate the society that we live in are infringed .


Arguably, yes, but it´s also protecting elements of that culture. Fair use is protected, parasiting on other people´s efford is banned. As I see it the problem isn´t in what´s permitted and what´s outlawed, I think the problem is in how the laws are abused by certain groups to do things they were never intended to do.

Quote:
oh by the way mp3 downloading "GET OVER IT"


You never released a record, did you?

Could you point to some work of yours that uses sampling to celebrate the culture we live in in a way that it couldn´t be celebrated through acoustic instruments or synthesis? What advancements to the human race would you develop were you not held back by copyright law?

Like many you are confusing MP3, which is just a data compression algorithem and sampling, which is merely a way of aproaching data, with copyright infringement. You can sample anything that makes a sound which includes a whole lot more then commercial recordings. Far from "celebrating our culture" I think many people who sample are indoctrinated by our culture´s tendency to disregard anything that´s not a packaged product. Many people only recognise the musical potential of a sound if it´s already presented as "musical" by the context of a recording, the very topic of this thread reinforces this way of thinking; aparently a sample is only "musical" if it´s catgorised, owned (preferably by somebody with status and "a name" so we can aply his status to the supposed value of the sample) and packaged. We´d rather fill out forms then go through our kitchen and shed looking for cool noises.

I´d rather celebrate my kitchen then that culture.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

I´d rather celebrate my kitchen then that culture.


Good point, Kassen. I'm with you on that one.

When samplers first came out I was very dissapponted that most samples were of conventional instruments. IMHO, this set back electronic music decades. We still haven't recovered. I was even more dissappointed that people started to use the technology to sample other people's music. This seems very uncreative to me.

I'm very encouraged that some of the newest and best artifical orchestral instruments are not based on sampling, but on physical models and other synthesis techniques. These new instruments do sound better. Samplers often sound flat and static to me.

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I´d rather celebrate my kitchen then that culture.


Me too.

Very Happy

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Wan



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Quote:
I´d rather celebrate my kitchen then that culture.


Me too.

Very Happy


Kassen, may i sample your kitchen too? Please.......

Oh no, he has got it copyrighted Exclamation

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deknow



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...maybe kassan can post an impulse response of his kitchen?

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I´m sorry, Wan, I keep my kitchen secret, fearing others could cook just like I do if they´d know what I use.

[rimshot]

Funny;

Last week I invest two bucks in a 7" of 2 Live Crew´s "banned in the U.S.A.", a single from their quite political album released as a reaction to the epic mess that resulted from "as nasty as they wanna be", including the copyright case over their parody of "pritty woman" (mentioned above).

It´s tremendously political and has a Bruce Springsteen sample on top of it all (as well as a metric million of samples from interviews and news broadcasts).

That sample is cleared, thanking bruce in fairly large letters smack in the middle of the sleeve. If I undestand the liner notes correctly mr. Luke is sharing the copyrights with bruce.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
g2ian wrote:

Imagine a world without sampling? I don’t have to, I was there. It wasn’t all that bad. People still copied each other though.


Can I ask how old you are?


Sorry Kassen, I'm not counting wax, wire, tape or PDP11, just the pre Fairlight world.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:

Sorry Kassen, I'm not counting wax, wire, tape or PDP11, just the pre Fairlight world.


I don´t think Wax was ever used for this but I do think early tape collages are quite interesting in this context. For one thing they were used actively to get around the primitiveness of synths (well, signal generators....) and to me there is a large link between the aesthetics of typical tape collages and the charcteristic sound of such political sampling based groups of artists like Negative Land. Even this "Banned in the USA" has a B-side without the lyrics that heavily hints of that kind of sound as does -facinatingly- Bomb20´s masterpiece in political Gabba "Field Manual" album. Ok, with Field manual it´s not that pronounced the whole time due to rather a lot of rather loud beats, but it´s there to my ear.

I pointed at that to indicate there´s a difference between "sampling" as in "recontextualising a sound found or made elsewhere" and as in "dumping to the Akai, then midi controling it". ¬a]e o|¬e is liberally mixing those up, implying the laws that keep him from borrowing that Metalica drum solo are also keeping humanity from developing genetic algorthems to process fft data (I´m sure that would be fun, Bidule could probably do it...).

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phasercs101



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Something NEW! RIAA Speaks On DJ Drama Raid: 'We Enforce Our Rights' This opens a whole new can of worms on this subject!
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opg



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I talked about all this when a friend wrote his thesis on copyright law. Here's his blog (part of the requirement for his thesis):

http://www.jordiweinstock.com/

He was more interested in the grey areas. What about Nintendo sounds? Not from songs, but sound effects? And what about sound effects from TV shows (like a water splash from a bass fishing show)?

When people talk about the more obvious and traditional version of sampling, I have mixed views. I've heard good and bad songs using the same samples. However, I'm pretty damn tired of being able to recognize James Brown drum loops on TV commercials. Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

opg wrote:
I talked about all this when a friend wrote his thesis on copyright law. Here's his blog (part of the requirement for his thesis):


Hey opg what degree is your friend going after? Master, PHD, Law? I looked at his site, tell him it's very well thought out and he's done a great job with putting legal terms into common language.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phasercs101 wrote:
Hey opg what degree is your friend going after? Master, PHD, Law? I looked at his site, tell him it's very well thought out and he's done a great job with putting legal terms into common language.


He's actually finished with law school and is now working. His writing is great, and he has an amazing amount of knowledge on the history of popular music. Unfortunately, he has multiple sclerosis (a rather serious case now), and may be leaving his job soon. He probably doesn't want me blabbing about this. He's a brilliant guy.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

opg wrote:

He's actually finished with law school and is now working.

Ah sounds familiar, my girl friend is in Law School right now...she is working on become a copyright and intellectual property lawyer. I showed her this forum topic and said pretty much if you sample anything from an artist without permission its illegal..including random noises on the recordings as well as nintendo games and such, but reproducing that nintendo sound using your synth is completely legal. Interesting topic this is.

I'm sorry to here about your friend's condition.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phasercs101 wrote:
if you sample anything from an artist without permission its illegal..including random noises on the recordings as well as nintendo games and such, but reproducing that nintendo sound using your synth is completely legal.


Where my friend and I butted heads was sound effects from NES games that I could easily reproduce on a synth. For example, the start-up sound on a Gameboy is just a simple one-octave gliss (or "flam," percussively Confused ). But everybody recognizes it. Can Nintendo claim two notes? Another example is the coin sound from Super Mario Brothers.

Digital is where it gets messy. You can have someone do a thorough analysis to see if the exact same clarinet on a specific recording was sampled, but synthetic stuff.... Question

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here are a few scenarios:

1) You pop in super mario bros III (the best game in the world) and put a mic to the TV and record the coin noise and then use it in a song. Sampling (illegal)

2) Get on your nord G2 and make a patch that sounds like the coin noise and use it in your song..legal...nintendo could still file suit but if you can prove you made that sound by showing the judge the G2 patch, he or she would probably throw that case out really fast. As far as determining if one clarinet is original that could be tricky...maybe show the original digital files and then some analysis software.

Now the fun stuff here where it can turn all glorious shades of grey! Very Happy Trademarks and copyrights. Maybe nintendo has trademarked the coin sound and the gameboy start sound.

If you where to make a song, I think they wouldn't have a problem but if you where to stick it to your own new gaming system you where about to sell watch out! They would come after you.

But nintendo could have also has filled a composition copyright on the gameboy sound (Someone correct me if I'm wrong I'm starting to step out of my knowledge base a little)...so if you play gameboy start up song it would illegal without permission...but you would have to be knowing covering the song...and more shades of grey.

Would the G2 patch in your song interfere with nintendo's trademarks, copyrights on products...who knows?

They way I see if someone samples and they are small time, no problem they will be under the radar. If they become big then they could get the label to pay for a big lawyer to go after all the details and liscenes.

Just a few other things to think about. phew this is more fun than working! HAHA back to work for me. I'm a sucker for distraction. Which electro-music.com is more than happy to provide.

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