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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Bugs
noises on G2X out with usb cable connected
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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OMG, what have I done. If I knew iPassenger looked like that I would have made a house call. Shocked

(Just kidding Ross. Smile )

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

LOL...(gotta keep smiling.)

No way am I opening it up, that is one step too far. (for an idiot like myself)

I only bought it last week.!

Have returned to original un-doctored lead and all is well again, contact maintained. Smile but noise is back. Sad

I think I am gonna give it a rest for now (i need to eat), until someone has a solution that doesn't involve re-wiring the flat or the inside of my g2.

Thanks for all your help anyway.

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Actually, I once fixed a similar problem once for a friend of mine by doctoring a cheap hub. I did all the snips and voodoo stuff on the hub`s PCB. That worked fine. However, the hub was of course not a hub anymore. Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

would a hub that had it's own power supply not help?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PSU.. Probably not.. but who knows. Some high end hubs supposedly do disconnect and float shield/grnd or something. There was posh one make out there with a dip switch..a pink/red translucent thingie with an obnoxious logo and lotsa blinking led. You know.. the Pimp My USB variety...

Anyways, what I did was pretty much using the front part of the PCB with the connectors. The rest was removed.

I think we ended up with shield disconnected and grnd connected.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In that case, r u saying that if i just bodged another lead, n this time, just disconnect the ground n the shield it might clear the noise but still operate as a useful lead? Or do these signals need to go somewhere hence the need for a hub?

Damn it I need to go back to college n try n suss this bloody electronics out, mind it lost last me last time, studios, recording kit, software ok, the insides of the boxes n the wires themselves n i am lost.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Killing a hub seemed easier at the moment than killing 10 known good USB cables. YMMV. I´m getting old. My eyes are going. It seemed easier to mess with a PCB.


Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey, see Jan´s comment in that other thread. He is also mentioning the grnd issue. He has a point. Don´t go wild.



One thing you really shouldn´t do is connecting the USB cable shielding to the nearest stanless steel kitchen sink. Laughing

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hehe...well as far as my 20/20 vision was concerned i only cut the earth n live (perhaps i shouldn't have cut the live) n separated the screening.

Don't really fancy wasting £10 or so doing it again for it not to work tho.

It was a cheap USB cable, maybe there were faults wit hit anyway.

Too many variables.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
but it might be more productive to disconnect USB grnd inside the G2.


Seems the most sensible thing to do IMO, I'll have look.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
but it might be more productive to disconnect USB grnd inside the G2.


Seems the most sensible thing to do IMO, I'll have look.



Take care! You are entering the domain of norse gods.

Welcome to USBhalla.


Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
You are entering the domain of norse gods.


Indeed Very Happy

Next time I'll measure before I speak. Next time I'll measure before I unscrew a device. The USB shield is floating on the G2 side. Erm and now I have a lot of iron to reassemble, and I'll shut up Embarassed

However this gave me a nice opportunity to see the PCB mistakes made by Mr Nordelius.

While I was at it I also checked the MIDI shields, MIDI in has a flaoting shield , out and thru have the shield connected to ground. This is as it should be.

So why ... is the USB interface not silent.

Well there is another ground loop of course,as soon as both audio and USB are connected to the computer, eventhough the item did get some designer attention. The USB GND signal (not the shield) is connected to the G2 GND through a resistor of about 10 Ohm. The G2 GND is the same as it's audio GND of course. So maybe this 10 E resistor could be replaced by an inductor to break the loop for HF signals.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

One thing you really shouldn´t do is connecting the USB cable shielding to the nearest stanless steel kitchen sink. Laughing

why not Idea you could end up with a "sink in sync" Idea

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Judging by this and the other related topic, this is quite a complex issue.

Do some people not have this problem b'cos there pc/house has better grounding?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ross, keep an eye on that other USB thread too. Jan came back with some vital information re the G2s wiring.


Trivia: In general I think a lot of project studio mess could have been sorted out by vendors having implemented a fully isolated and balanced audio path. When it comes to "expensive" electronic instruments with analog audio out intended for pro use, it simply does not make any sense to stick with unbalanced.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Jan came back with some vital information re the G2s wiring.


Same info is in this thread BTW ... mostly Clavia did a good job as far as I can tell - maybe it could be improved a bit , I'll get me some inductors to see if it helps. The problem seems to be in having both audio and USB conected to a computer and this seems pretty hard to solve as the GND wire should be broken to break the loop, but that seems not to be allowed by the USB specs.

Better quality USB cable (read thicker wire for the GND) could better it a bit as the current flowing through it would give lessa (audible) voltage drop then. Shorter cables are better than long ones, but it's all pretty marginal probably.

Balanced audio outputs and/or transformer coupling would better it more. Or light pipes of course.

A computer having a ground connection tied to the ground connection of an amplifier or mixer will add yet another ground loop. Ground lifting might help there (but I've seen things getting worse on ground lifting as well). Why a laptop would need a ground conection is beyond me, the transformer should be properly isolated and that would be good enough.

Please do keep in mind though that for some equipment the ground actually is there for safety - I remember quite well hitting the ceiling after touching a PC and a central heating pipe at the same time. In a wet environment it would have killed me I guess - electricity in a bad mood is not something to joke about (in Europe even more so than in the US due to the higher voltage used).

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
The problem seems to be in having both audio and USB conected to a computer and this seems pretty hard to solve as the GND wire should be broken to break the loop, but that seems not to be allowed by the USB specs.


It just could improve matters to use a DI/balanced line driver and use a soundcard with a balanced input.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have discussed this with a few people at work, one suggestion was to try placing a ferrite noise suppressing core arround the usb cable, like the ones, you have on a monitor cable, the usb keyboards we have at work have them on them, unfortunately they cannot be removed (for testing purposes). Smile

What u think?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Right then. I have bought, on the condition that I can return it if it doesn't work, another usb cable with gold plated ends, good screening and a ferrite core on each end of the cable.

I'll let you know the results when I get home.

If this doesn't work, i was advised that I would need a power conditioner, which is gonna set me back around £40 or so.

So could really do with this working. (just a 10db drop would do)

Cheers

R (Yr resident test subject)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Argggghhh!!!!

Ok tried new lead n it made the noise problem louder than with the Nord cable by about 10dB.

Losing patience now.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A G4? Which model? CPU speed, number of CPUs.. ?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Still connecting to the keyboard USB port?

Do you have a CRT or an LCD display?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Are there any CRT displays near the keyboard?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

re-wiring studio from ground up to see if I can seperate the audio and power lines but it has made no difference at all.

I have a pc, win xp, have tried multiple usb ports. even have bad noise thru desk when the channel that the audio lead from the engine is connected to is muted but again disconnect usb (G2) problem gone.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...although others will advise against it, if you ground lift the power on the computer, or ground the computer, the problem will go away. this is due to crappy grounding of computers.

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