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Boss issues monster looper
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:15 am    Post subject: Boss issues monster looper
Subject description: And it even syncs..
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Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

For those awaiting the arrival of the ultimate looper, the wait is finally over. Introducing the RC-50 — the most feature-laden Loop Station BOSS has ever built. It’s the best live looping tool ever built for that matter. Housed in a spacious seven-footswitch floor unit, the RC-50 lets you manipulate three stereo phrase tracks simultaneously. Each track supports multiple overdubs, so phrases can be stacked one by one on each track, resulting in a monstrous layer of looped phrases.

The new industry-leading looping tool for live performance!
7 footswitches for intuitive control; realtime control of playback speed
Play up to 3 stereo phrase tracks simultaneously, all synced to an internal or MIDI clock
Ultra-long recording time (up to 49 min., mono), 99 patches (3 master loops per patch)
Undo/Redo function for recording and overdubbing
Center-cancellation feature, "flat" amplifier simulation feature
Stereo input, dual stereo output, XLR phantom-powered mic input, stereo mini-jack Aux input (for recording from an MP3 players, etc.)
USB port for data/audio backup, import/export of loops as WAV files

Loop, Layer, Rock!
Ready to blow your audience away? With a single RC-50, a guitarist, bassist, keyboardist, or vocalist can create a perfectly synced wall of sound live onstage. There are three simultaneous stereo phrase channels on the RC-50, each with a dedicated footswitch. Each channel can contain dozens of loops/phrases that you stack one by one, so you can imagine how massive your arrangements or solos can become!

In Sync
The RC-50 speaks sync. For bands that incorporate digital audio tracks, sequences, drum machines, and/or video elements into their live gigs, sync is not a luxury — it’s a necessity. For scenarios such as these, the RC-50 can be locked to an external MIDI clock source, ensuring that its loop performances are absolutely locked to the rest of the show. Internally, the RC-50 offers Loop Quantize for easy loop recording, plus Loop Sync (which enables all phrases to start in sync), and Tempo Sync (which matches the tempo of multiple phrases during playback).

Rhythm Guide
To make recording as fun and inspiring as possible, the RC-50 provides a total of 379 play-along Rhythm Guide Patterns using real sampled drums in a wide variety of time signatures. Why record to a stale click track when you can jam with rockin’ grooves instead?

Impressive I/O
The RC-50’s rear panel is well stocked with connectors, offering a variety of inputs (stereo Inst ins, XLR input with 48V phantom power, mini-jack aux), outputs (1/4” stereo, 1/4” sub stereo outs, headphone out), and USB for importing WAV files from computers. MIDI in and out jacks are provided, as are 1/4” TRS inputs for accommodating an optional Expression pedal and footswitches; up to four footswitches can be used simultaneously.

http://www.bossus.com/index.asp?pg=1&tmp=155

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kkissinger



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Has anyone here tried out this looper? Is anyone using it for live or studio performance?

Would this do the kind of music that (for example) Amy X Neuburg is doing?

Is a dedicated hardware looper easier to use and/or more effective than pc-based looping for live performance?

I'm shopping around this days -- thus far I have created backing tracks in advance for my own live (Theremin) performances and I think to do some numbers without backing tracks would add variety to the playlist.

As always, appreciate any comments or info.

Thanks!
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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think Amy's rig is a bit more elaborate than that. She uses a midi drum pad with several different pads on it to access different loops and effects on an Echoplex processor. It also seems to trigger the setup for her automated mixer. This doesn't have a midi in for a separate controller, or does it? I do think that this would come pretty close to what she can do. I would love to have this unit. How much is it?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Musician's Friend has it listed for $499.99.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Boss-RC50-Loop-Station?sku=151044

It has MIDI in and out. I am definitely considering this unit.
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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is the Midi In and Out just for the clock/sync or will it allow you to control it from another source?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

(Just checked the owner's manual)

It supports program change events to change patches.

It uses CC1, CC7, and CC80 to receive a plethora of instructions to control the volume, tempo, etc of the loops. Looking it over... looks like you can do anything from another source (i.e., sequencer) that can be done from the pedals and panel controls. It looks very comprehensive. It also supports MIDI Start and Stop, Sync, etc.

Also, the unit transmits CC messages from pedals that are connected to its external pedal jacks. THe unit outputs MIDI clock messages, start stop, and program changes.

Thus the unit will operate as a master or a slave.

Very impressive, indeed.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It looks pretty nice. I have the old original looper, and it's a great pedal. This new one seems amazing.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mobius http://www.zonemobius.com/

Was posted in the forum somewhere before. Is intended to reflect the features and performance of the echoplex, and it's software! You might also be interested in the G2's Vortex thread going on in the "Completed Patches" section. That is, if you were in the market for a G2 Smile A little bit more out of the bank, but can do so much! (end sales pitch).

I use a Behringer FCB1010 pedal, which is great for just this type of thing.
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kkissinger



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:07 pm    Post subject: broke down and bought one Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I did the deed and purchased the RC-50.

Played around with it last night -- just using a microphone as input. It is pretty easy to use out of the box for the basic functions. I didn't get too far though... when my boys (aged nine and six) saw and heard this they wanted to try it out. They were having soooo much fun that I didn't have the heart to shoo them away. Wink

I have never worked with real-time looping and quickly enhanced my appreciation for the ingenuity and skill of others who work with loops.

I'll keep you posted -- hopefully can contribute some useful comments about the unit in the future. For now, I am on the learning curve.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:20 pm    Post subject: Re: broke down and bought one Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kkissinger wrote:
They were having soooo much fun that I didn't have the heart to shoo them away. Wink

admit it Exclamation they stole your show Wink

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:11 am    Post subject: Boss RC50 Loop Station
Subject description: A little info from a new user
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As promised, I'm posting some initial observations about the RC-50 loop station. I have owned it for three weeks now.

Out of the box results

As with most modern equipment, the RC-50 has a plethora of features however after about an hour I was able to record loops, overdub, etc. This is perhaps not a big deal except that I was able to do so in sync!

Two powerful features allow one to create synchronized loops with ease: 1) auto-start and, 2) loop quantize.

Auto-start starts the loop precisely when you play or sing into the unit without requiring you to push a pedal at precisely the same time. To "mark" the end of the loop, one pushes a foot pedal -- the RC-50 sets the end of the loop precisely on the beat for you -- thus your first looping phrase will play back in precise rhythm. As you can imagine, if that first loop is "right on the beat" then the overdubbed loops are much easier to accomplish.

As I mentioned earlier, the first evening I got the unit, my kids watched me playing with it and, when they tried it, were able to create precise and fun loops themselves!

Phrases

The owner's manual is well-organized and lays out the features and applications of the loop station. The toughest part of grasping the concepts is learning some terminology.

The basic building-block of a loop is the "Phrase". You can think of a phrase as a sample of finite length. One can record, overdub, punch-in, punch-out, replace, a single phrase in real time.

A set of options apply to "phrase recording", and yet another apply to "phrase playback". For example, there are sync functions that apply to phrase recording, others that apply to phrase playback.

As many as three phrases can be manipulated in real time. Each phrase can have many overdubbed layers, of course. Via the foot pedals or MIDI control, the phrases can be started, stopped, overdubbed, replaced, and re-recorded in real time. The phrase record and playback options can be independently specified for each phrase -- the tempi can be sped up, slowed down, phrases can play in reverse, etc. They can be panned, too.

Patches

A set of three phrases and their function settings are collectively called a "patch". The RC-50 allows up to 99 patches to be stored. Patches can be changed in real time.

There are also function settings, such as sync, that apply to patches.

The toughest thing, for me, was to distinguish between: phrase-record functions, phrase-playback functions, and patch-functions.

An example of a patch-level function is multi-play vs. single-play. In multi-play, any combination of the three phrases can play together. In single play, only one at a time plays. That is, if you start phrase two while phrase one is playing, phrase one will stop and phrase two will start.

A patch, then, is an entire recording/playback/looping/sync configuration.
Thus, you can change configuration simply by changing from one patch to another. Very flexible for live performance.

sync

Depending on the settings, a phrase may start or stop immediately (upon pressing the start pedal) or will start or stop sometime after. If a phrase's option is set to stop at the end of the phrase, the phrase will continue to the end and then stop.

For example, you could set up phrase one with a theme, phrase two with some kind of variation, and phrase three with an ending. In a performance, you could simply alternate between phrases one and two -- and when its time to end, switch to phrase three. The syncing allows you to hit the phrase pedals well in advance of the change -- the RC-50 will accomplish the change exactly in sync. Thus, besides real time looping, one could load up the unit with backing tracks that could be played back in a spontaneous manner.

Sync is a user-settable option -- it can be turned off entirely and each phrase will, then, operate as independent loop pedals -- with their own tempi, lengths, etc.

Stereo and/or mono

Phrases can be recorded in stereo or mono. At playback time, mono patches can be panned. Thus, looped songs can be built that echo across the stereo field.

Cueing and click tracks

Rather than a click track, the unit has built in drum patterns that are more fun to play with than clicks. (though, I wish it had the option of a click). It has some simple beats that could function the same as clicks. The beats can be mixed in with the main output or can be fed to a separate output that could be used as a cue. Thus, in real time one could listen to clicks in an ear bud when laying down loops.

(note: I use a pitch-preview for my theremin, and will likely listen to cues, too. Thus, I will need a little mixer just for my ear bud. Such is life.)

Lots of inputs

The unit has its own clean mic preamp with phantom power and an xlr connector. It also has a line-in and instrument-in. The line-in and instrument in allow mono or stereo signals. Thus you can play, talk, sing -- whatever -- into this unit. Each input has its own level control and the RC-50 has its own internal mixer for the three inputs.

Sound quality

In a word: superb. 24-bit 44.1khz audio -- better than CD quality.

Computer interface

The unit has a USB interface that allows digital transfer between a computer and the RC-50 -- thus, patches, phrases, etc... can be stored on an external computer. It also has MIDI IN and OUT to support Syncing and computer control. The RC-50 can function as a master or slave.

For example, one could use the RC-50 as the master clock for your MIDI setup. By tapping your foot you can change the tempo of the RC-50. Imagine speeding up or slowing down your whole rig by tapping your foot!

I haven't yet experimented with the MIDI interface -- I anticipate doing some music that combines MIDI backing tracks with real-time looping -- in such an application I anticipate slaving the RC-50's clock from a computer.

Summary

As you can tell, I am very excited about the RC-50. The unit has tremendous flexibility and yet is easy to use. Along with the flexibility comes a bit of a learning curve. One of my goals is to add some real-time looping compositions to my live sets (which include solo music performed with my own backing tracks). I think to add numbers that are performed entirely in real-time will add variety and interest to my sets.

I am currently in the "experimental" mode with the unit however I hope to have some examples recorded during the first quarter of 2007.

-- Kevin

Last edited by kkissinger on Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice summary. Thanks for the review. It looks like a tremendous piece of hardware.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:12 pm    Post subject: More info on the RC50's MIDI implementation Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi!

This post is a follow up with some additional info about controlling RC50 functions from a computer via MIDI.

Synchronization

The RC50 utilizes MIDI START, STOP, and MIDI CLOCK for sychronization. The use of the RC50 as a Master or Slave can be set at the Patch level or the System level (a system level setting will override the patch settings). One of the sync settings is the "AUTO" setting tells the RC50 to use its own internal clock as the sync source in the absence of external MIDI START/MIDI CLOCK signals.

The RC50 won't sync to an external MIDI CLOCK signal until it receives a MIDI START message.

Note that the RC50 always transmits MIDI CLOCK.

Control Change (CC)

The RC50 sends and receives Control Change messages, namely CC#1, CC#7, and CC#80.

CC's 1 and 7 accept continuous controller data -- they can be used to control volume, pan, and tempo settings.

CC#80 is implemeted as a "toggle" rather than CC data. When a CC#80 message with a value greater than 64 (that is, the high order bit is "on") is received, the RC50 responds as if a pedal was tapped. Thus, CC#80 controls functions such as "Phrase Start/Phrase Stop" and other functions that are either "on or off" (i.e. Phrase Reverse on/off).

So, the bottom line is -- if you are controlling the RC50 from a computer you can control up to two separate Continuous functions and one toggled function. The RC50 allows you to specify the function controlled by CC#1, CC#7, and CC#80. These settings are settable either as "System" settings or as "Patch" settings (again, System settings override the patch settings).

For example, a particular patch might assign CC#1 to control the panning of Phrase 1. CC#7 could control the volume level of Phrase 1. CC#80 could be used to toggle the REVERSE mode of Phrase 1.

In this application, the computer could send CC#1 messages to implement an autopan, the computer could fade in and out the phrase, and the computer could switch it to playback in reverse mode.

Thus, for each patch you can choose up to three parameters that can be controlled from an external MIDI device (i.e. a computer).
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deknow



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...what happens if the incoming midi clock changes tempo?
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kkissinger



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The when the RC50 recieves a CLOCK START message, it will track the tempo of the external MIDI CLOCK signal. Thus, if the tempo of the external MIDI CLOCK changes, the RC50 will change along with it.
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deknow



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...does it keep the pitch constant when the tempo changes, or does the playback just change speed?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The RC50 keeps the pitch constant with the speed change. However, with extreme differences in speed the quality of the playback suffers -- the pitch stays the same but there are some artifacts from the process.

I haven't quantified what percentage of tempo change is possible without artifacts... I'll have to check it later.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:01 am    Post subject: Less-than-perfect when syncing from another device Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Unfortunately, I have experienced problems when attempting to sync the RC50 to another clock source (my computer). I have been following the topic on the Loopers-delight mailing list and others have reported the same issues. (the RC50 doesn't exactly match the incoming tempo and doesn't stay in sync with the master device).

My desire was to incorporate looping in sync with my synthesized tracks and I have resorted to using VST delays instead. In addition, with VST every parameter can be automated at once. While most of the RC50's parameters can be automated, you can only automate up to three parameters for any given patch.

I haven't experimented at great length using the RC50 as the master clock.

As a stand-alone looper it works as promised, its tone quality is clear. Many of us are eagerly awaiting a software update from Roland that will address the syncing issue.

Personally, I wish it would just sync up to an incoming clock signal WITHOUT a requirement for a MIDI-START message. As long as the pedal is in sync with the computer, I can start it with a CC message or a pedal press. In fact, the MIDI-START requirement (for me) is a major hassle.

Well, anyway... I have written favorably about this loop station in previous posts and in fairness I feel compelled to report my lack of success when trying to slave the RC50 to another source.

-- Kevin
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...there are lots of other threads talking about syncing with computers....in most cases, the computer is a lousy clock source, and you are better off with an old mmt8 or something just sending clock. is the issue with any incoming clock, or only incoming clock from a computer?

deknow
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
...is the issue with any incoming clock, or only incoming clock from a computer?deknow


In my case, I have only attempted clocking the RC50 from my Computer/Firepod (I have clocked my K2600's clock from my computer/firepod and it seems to work ok, though.)

When I get a chance, I'll try clocking the RC50 from another source and I'll keep you posted.

I'm not sure about the other folks on loopers-delight ... whether they are using computers a clock sources.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:51 pm    Post subject: Boss RC-50 Looper
Subject description: Tempo Sync options
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I've tried to sync just the clock from a Korg Karma, Korg Electribe, from EMU 1616 midi interface, and had the same problem. The tempo only follows the external tempo when an FA is received. When it does follow the tempo, it's not accurate. I called Roland the other day to no avail. I have tried to eliminate the FA sent from Korg equipment and even called their team. to no avail. The guy from Roland said that there might be a way to use software to filter the MIDI messages, but he couldn't give any details.

I have spent a bunch of time scouring through the endless rc-50 sales pitches, looking for a solution to this particular issure, and found you guys. I was trying to find software which allows you to see midi traffic on the computers midi ports, and then allows you to filter them in/out,(midi firewall?) but was not able to find anything useful. Let me know if you guys know of such a program.

I feel as though there must be some way around this, I'm running into dead ends though. It must be determined whether removing the "FA/FC" from the message sent from the external sequencer will allow the rc-50 to respond only to tempo sync, or are we marooned here in this awkward, it allllllllllllllmmmmost did what I wanted it to do state.

Hope to hear from lots of other users on this one, if you know, don't hold out on us...
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MIDIOX is free, works well, and should do anything you need for MIDI filtering, routing, etc.

I'd also recommend staying away from computers as a source of the MIDI clock. It has nothing to do with ASIO latency...MIDI runs on the system timer, which can be very unpredictable and LONG (upwards of 40ms!).

To help, go to your System Properties (right-click on My Computer, or go through the control panel). In the Advanced tab, click on Performance Settings. make sure background services is checked...this can help improve MIDI timing, as well as ASIO latency.

That said, I would try to sync your computer to the RC-50, rather than the other way around.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Boss issues monster looper
Subject description: And it even syncs..
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elektro80 wrote:


With a single RC-50, a guitarist, bassist, keyboardist, or vocalist can create a perfectly synced wall of sound live onstage.


Please be careful. Walls of Sound sometimes knock down the inventor AND make you want wearing ridiculous wigs. afro

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Boss issues monster looper
Subject description: And it even syncs..
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sebber wrote:

Please be careful. Walls of Sound sometimes knock down the inventor AND make you want wearing ridiculous wigs. afro


something like this one Question

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

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