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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Fun way to do microtuning Updated to (v2.0)
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GovernorSilver



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
GovernorSilver wrote:
It was one of synths that he could not find a way to retune except by MIDI Pitch Bend, which has its limitations.

all the synths not supposed to be retunable are retunable by pitch bend (Propellerhead Reason is one of them) using LMSO's Nuscale method. I guess the G2 is no exception. it looks like maximum poliphony you can get this way is 4 (1 for each slot). Is this the limitation you are talking about?


Indeed, because of pitch bend affecting all notes on the same channel.

Based on what I have seen so far, I doubt LMSO's sysex-based trickery is going to work with the G2. Really, the best bet is to implement a patch generator app that loads the desired tuning and generates the patch fragment for the tuning.

Or I guess do the full multiplexer + control sequencer idea Dasz describes and have an external MIDI app send CC messages to tune the notes. I don't know...
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GovernorSilver wrote:
Or I guess do the full multiplexer + control sequencer idea Dasz describes and have an external MIDI app send CC messages to tune the notes. I don't know...


Sounds like a job for G2ools. Choose a tuning table and your fav G2 pch, and a new G2ool adds the tuning block and sets the values.

Does anyone know a resource of alternate tunings expressed as +- cents from ET?

Last edited by ian-s on Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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seraph
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:

Does anyone no a resource of alternate tunings expressed as +- cents from ET?

LMSO can save tuning files as ASCII files.

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Last edited by seraph on Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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GovernorSilver



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:
GovernorSilver wrote:
Or I guess do the full multiplexer + control sequencer idea Dasz describes and have an external MIDI app send CC messages to tune the notes. I don't know...


Sounds like a job for G2ools. Choose a tuning table and your fav G2 pch, and a new G2ool adds the tuning block and sets the values.


That's quite an offer! This is pretty much what I had in mind - an app that reads a Scala tuning file and puts out a patch fragment in a .pch file with the desired tuning values. I didn't mind doing it myself, but if you are willing to start now I won't stop you! Cool

g2ian wrote:

Does anyone no a resource of alternate tunings expressed as +- cents from ET?


I think it's best to use the Scala Tuning Archive as a resource - it has over 3000 tunings already and the .scl file format is the de facto standard because its easy-to-read ASCII text format has been widely adopted by microtonal composers.

The Scala File Format description (with link to .zip file containing the Archive):
http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/scl_format.html

For example, here's the content of the file "19-53.scl":

! 19-53.scl
!
19 out of 53-tET by Larry H. Hanson, 1978
19
!
67.92453
135.84906
203.77358
249.05660
316.98113
384.90566
452.83019
498.11321
566.03774
633.96226
701.88679
769.81132
815.09434
883.01887
950.94340
1018.86792
1086.79245
1132.07547
2/1

According to the Scala format specification, the above file specifies a tuning which consists of 19 notes in one octave, with the tuning of each note in cents, with one cent being the standard 1/100 of a semitone. The G2 oscillator fine tuning is also in cents.

The sample file below specifies a scale as a set of ratios in relation to the fundamental pitch, instead of cent values. It is a 13-tone scale that spans 2 octaves instead of one. In other words, it repeats every two octaves instead of every octave:

! smithgw_ennon13.scl
Nonoctave Ennealimmal, [3, 5/3] just tuning
13
!
27/25
7/6
63/50
10/7
54/35
5/3
9/5
35/18
21/10
50/21
18/7
25/9
3/1

If I read the G2 manual correctly, oscillator tuning can also be specified in frequency (Hz) instead of cents, so to convert the above values, just multiply the base frequency by the ratio to get each individual note tuning.
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seraph
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GovernorSilver wrote:
It is a 13-tone scale that spans 2 octaves instead of one. In other words, it repeats every two octaves instead of every octave...

actually it looks like it repeats after one octave and a fifth (1901.955 cents, not 2400.00) Wink

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GovernorSilver



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
GovernorSilver wrote:
It is a 13-tone scale that spans 2 octaves instead of one. In other words, it repeats every two octaves instead of every octave...

actually it looks like it repeats after one octave and a fifth (1901.955 cents, not 2400.00) Wink


I was just testing you, sir. Smile

For some reason, I forgot that two octaves above fundamential is actually a 4/1 ratio, because you double the fundamental to get an octave. Embarassed

3/1 ratio is not a multiple of 2. Embarassed
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GovernorSilver



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
GovernorSilver wrote:
This page explains the issues of microtuning physical models - it's specific to the VL-70 synth...

I happen to have a VL70-m Exclamation
Quote:
From the front panel of the VL70-m however, you can only devise 12-tone-per-octave tunings whose pitches differ by no more than 64 cents from 12TET (12-tone-equal temperament). All pitches octaves apart on the keyboard need to be octaves apart. These restrictions are much to strong for most microtonal work.

Paolo, you own LMSO, so why bother Question Cool


Carlo, do you have music featuring microtuned VL-70? I'd love to hear it!

Since the VL is monophonic, tuning by MIDI pitch bend should be fine. I once jammed with some people playing just-tuned instruments, playing a bamboo sax that was designed for normal temperament, but I had no trouble matching their intonation with lip pressure on the reed and some partial covering of the fingerholes (I wasn't sophisticated enough to use cross-fingerings). I didn't have to move the sax's finger holes, or change the length of its bore, etc.
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seraph
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GovernorSilver wrote:

Carlo, do you have music featuring microtuned VL-70?

the VL70 is featured on the first half of my Nemovar piece. but that part is in 12tET, when the VL70 stops the piece moves to another tuning Shocked so the answer to your question is, no Rolling Eyes

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GovernorSilver



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
GovernorSilver wrote:

Carlo, do you have music featuring microtuned VL-70?

the VL70 is featured on the first half of my Nemovar piece. but that part is in 12tET, when the VL70 stops the piece moves to another tuning Shocked so the answer to your question is, no Rolling Eyes


Oh well. I bet when you do try microtuning the VL70 by pitch bend, it will be similar to me using "pitch bend" on my bamboo sax (with lip pressure, partial covering of finger holes), but of course with better technique. Smile
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seraph
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Paolo, do you really think exerting lip pressure on the case of a rack mounted synthesizer will do any good Question Cool
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here is a 80 note microtonal piano patch.

I think I can do the python code that will allow auto tuning from a Scala file. For scales that require more than +- 100 cents from ET I would drop in an extra row of SeqCtr modules. Any suggestions for features, what to do with the variations etc?


meanquar.pch2
 Description:
microtonal piano

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 Filename:  meanquar.pch2
 Filesize:  5.27 KB
 Downloaded:  814 Time(s)

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GovernorSilver



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks, g2ian! Will try tonight when I get home from work.

As for uses for the Variations, one idea would be to use Variations to select different tunings. One practical example would be selecting between variations of a Middle Eastern scale where certain quarter-tone scale degrees differ, because the Egyptian version of, say, A quarter-tone sharp, is slightly different from the Turkish version, as well as the Persian version.

So the tool might be capable of loading up to 8 Scala tuning files and generating one patch Building Block with those 8 tunings loaded into the 8 Variations.

I'm not sure, however, how the above idea would integrate with existing patches that also have Variations set up. But it might not be a bad idea to simply let the patch user figure out what tuning Variations to match with which Variations of the patch to which the Tuning Building Block is being added.
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have a working scala > G2 python tool. I'm not 100% sure I have everything right. Anyone keen to help test it? It drops into the G2ools folder and at the moment, generates one file for every scl file specified on the command line. The patch is taken from a template so you can substitute your own patch so long as it contains the tuning block from the example.

Here a couple of samples.


fokker_53b.pch2
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  fokker_53b.pch2
 Filesize:  6.72 KB
 Downloaded:  738 Time(s)


meaneb742.pch2
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  meaneb742.pch2
 Filesize:  6.72 KB
 Downloaded:  774 Time(s)


Last edited by ian-s on Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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GovernorSilver



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Excellent news, g2ian!

The generic 80-note patch seems to work, from what little playing I did on it.

I'm very impressed that you got a Scala-to-G2 converter going in such a short amount of time. I'll try to do my part in getting the word out for testing.

Thank you so much!
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GovernorSilver wrote:

I'm very impressed that you got a Scala-to-G2 converter going in such a short amount of time.


Congrats, Ian. Turns the G2 into a more powerful synth. Now us Norders can expand our horizons into the world of alternative tunings. The G2 just go a new feature and Mr. Nord himself probably doesn't even know about it yet.

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dasz



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cool! this was exactly what my intentions for this topic were! awesome!

The Nord be with you.
/Dasz

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks but I cant take all the credit Embarassed

I just did the scala file parser which translates the ratios to cents values using 1200*log(R1/R2)/log(2). It then applies the ratios to the fine and coarse sliders on the sequencers, repeating the pattern.

I just used qfingers G2 patch file framework for the hard stuff.

I am a microtonal newb though so I'm not sure I have everything correct. I don't know how I'm supposed to play these scales.

Drop these two files into your g2ools-x.x folder, open a command prompt and type scalaG2.py scalafile1.scl scalafile2.scl ...
A pch2 file for each scala file is produced.

Edit: Please see here for latest version

The PCH2 file can be any G2 patch as long as the 80 note retuner block is present as in the example.

Last edited by ian-s on Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ian, don't worry about it. You did it, it sounds awesome ... I just like to push once in a while ...
/Dasz

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It is just another example of how a community can accomplish more than any one person.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Interesting stuff Ian, will have to check it out later, but certainly will do so.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I only hope someone will be able to explain it to me next August in Belgium Cool
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mestlick



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:51 pm    Post subject: different wrap circuit Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This patch has a different wrap circuit, it's in green.
The blue constant module on top is for testing the circuit. The blue sequencers are for seeing the results.

This does not go from 2-13 in the upper octaves like the purple circuit.

The "MIN" and "MAX" constants set the range that the circuit wraps to.
I think that if you change the MIN or MAX you'll need to disconnect and reconnect the feedback on the "integrate" adder, or else there could be an offset to the input before the wrap. The patch is kind of a sequential program running at the sampling frequency.


wrapval.pch2
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 Filename:  wrapval.pch2
 Filesize:  2.34 KB
 Downloaded:  607 Time(s)

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GovernorSilver



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:
Thanks but I cant take all the credit Embarassed

I just did the scala file parser which translates the ratios to cents values using 1200*log(R1/R2)/log(2). It then applies the ratios to the fine and coarse sliders on the sequencers, repeating the pattern.

I just used qfingers G2 patch file framework for the hard stuff.

I am a microtonal newb though so I'm not sure I have everything correct. I don't know how I'm supposed to play these scales.

Drop these two files into your g2ools-x.x folder, open a command prompt and type scalaG2.py scalafile1.scl scalafile2.scl ...
A pch2 file for each scala file is produced.

The PCH2 file can be any G2 patch as long as the 80 note retuner block is present as in the example.


Wow, I will definitely try installing Python on my Mac OSX machine at home, then g2ools, then this, I think, new addition to the g2ools suite.

Thanks!
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seraph
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GovernorSilver wrote:

I will definitely try installing Python on my Mac OSX machine at home, then g2ools, then this, I think, new addition to the g2ools suite.

do it then let me know Very Happy

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

all the microtonal community has been informed by GovernorSilver
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/tuning/message/70803
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/MakeMicroMusic/message/16487
Very Happy

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