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U.S. Department of Peace
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bachus



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:45 pm    Post subject: U.S. Department of Peace
Subject description: many US citizens express outrage at the idea
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http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9083208

A bit from a side bar
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The History of an Idea: U.S. Department of Peace
NPR.org, March 22, 2007 · When people hear about the campaign to create a U.S. Department of Peace, they often laugh, raise their eyebrows or smirk.

In fact, the idea dates back to the birth of the nation. Benjamin Rush, one of the Founding Fathers who signed the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, wrote a famous and controversial essay, "A Plan for a Peace Office for the United States."

Rush, who was widely viewed as a gadfly, argued that a secretary of peace would help balance the impulses of the War Office (renamed the Department of Defense in 1949)....

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's as if people are interested in piece only after war.

But hey we are on a good way, the office of war became a department of defence and they are really into piece missions only nowadays aren't they, like getting rid of dictators. With some collateral damage unfortunately.

Next thing sure will be a departement of piece.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That´s one damned interesting spellchecker you have there! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Uh ok, piece=peace, fence=fense, stuff like that, sorry having an off day
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very Happy
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bachus



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As we know from Composer/Pop-musician there is a lot in a name. Perhaps we could rename the Department of Defense, The Department of Violent Solutions to International Problems and the new one The Department of Non-violent Solutions to International Problems. The express objective of the second would be to avoid the actual use of the first.

Hey, we need to start somewhere. Rolling Eyes

Peace is a lot tougher than you might think. After two days of watching constant repeats of the worst horrors the of September Eleventh attacks I wanted to go to war. It took nearly two months for me to regain my liberal equilibrium. So anything that might put a damper on our worst reflexes would be a good idea in my book.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
Hey, we need to start somewhere. :roll:


I think it would be a very good idea to have something for peace.

However the remarks I made before were not just/really cynical, it seems like people truly believe that a ministry of war can be used to keep peace as well (or even as the only means to achieve peace).

Looking at it from a personal level I can even understand, one has to bite occasionally to defend a territory. But on that level there are higher authorities to solve problems, and to keep peace, like justice and police.

It might be better to have a supra national institution than to have many national departments for war and/or peace. Unfortunately the biggest power in the world sees such differently. I think the UN was invented for this, but it just doesn't work too good in the current world as it is not given authority by it's members.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:

But hey we are on a good way, the office of war became a department of defence and they are really into piece missions only nowadays aren't they, like getting rid of dictators. With some collateral damage unfortunately.


Well, it makes perfect sense! If you have a "economy" that's based entirely on borowing money then you can call your acts of agressing "defense" as well. The US is very fond of that sort of thing, take for example what the campaign to prevent teen pregnancy is doing, or the "War on drugs". Another good example is "friendly fire".

If we considder those the VERY LAST THING the US needs a department of peace, that would only make them more war-like. Better would be a department of "gluttony" or a department of "genocide on the native population".

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bachus



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
If we considder those the VERY LAST THING the US needs a department of peace, that would only make them more war-like. Better would be a department of "gluttony" or a department of "genocide on the native population".


The US is not going away anytime soon. As a pragmatist who'd like to see a net reduction of suffering in the world I'd be trying to figure out what might actually help that might actually be realized. At this point even the well meaning Department of Peace hasn't got much of a chance.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
Kassen wrote:
If we considder those the VERY LAST THING the US needs a department of peace, that would only make them more war-like. Better would be a department of "gluttony" or a department of "genocide on the native population".


The US is not going away anytime soon. As a pragmatist who'd like to see a net reduction of suffering in the world I'd be trying to figure out what might actually help that might actually be realized. At this point even the well meaning Department of Peace hasn't got much of a chance.


I was reminded of the ministiries in 1984 (there's one of Peace, which deals with war, the ministry of truth deals with propaganda).

To avoid confusion; I intended the departments I sugested to do the exact oposite of their name, exactly like those in 1984. I thought I'd clarify that before anyone thinks I was promoting the extinction of everyone in the US, I was in favour of less discrimination againt the Native Americans.

That realy could've done with more explanation.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

To avoid confusion; I intended the departments I sugested to do the exact oposite of their name, exactly like those in 1984. I thought I'd clarify that before anyone thinks I was promoting the extinction of everyone in the US, I was in favour of less discrimination againt the Native Americans.

That realy could've done with more explanation.


Actually, I set a high probability to that notion you make explicit there. I just wanted to turn the thread to a more serious line. When I'm not just nuts I can be a bit of a party-pooper. Rolling Eyes

Really, I'm just desperate for a better kind of world and terrified that it's actually about to get very much worse Crying or Very sad

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah....

Sad

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I was reminded of the ministiries in 1984 (there's one of Peace, which deals with war, the ministry of truth deals with propaganda).

You're forgetting the most important one: the ministry of LOVE...

Wout

Okay... I would support the ministry of SpellCheck! Wink
No joke! Just remember there is nowhere a law about spell faults! Traffic laws, yes, but there's no-one ever convicted making a spelling mistake.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I didn't forget minilove, it just didn't seem as immediately relevant here.

With minitruth and minipeace you can point out specific analogies in current politics. For minilove that's much harder, I think Orwell intended that one much more as a comment on human nature itself then on politics. In the end the whole love-subplot and how it resolves is quite fundamental to the novel and far more important then the vidscreens that everyone gets stuck on but that's for another day.

Spelling would've been a part of minitruth, BTW, newspeak was their department, as was determining what was and wasn't a correct word. Under IngSoc using words badly most definately WAS a crime; "Oldspeakers non-bellyfeel IngSoc" was a saying there, if you didn't agree to language standards you were politically supicious. A schoolteacher's dream; no longer was teaching language merely a tool in teaching obedience, it actually served a purpose!

It's not so much the spelling element that bothers me, it's that spellchecker and me disagree a lot about what is and what isn't a word. Another thing is that I often have to Google words manually when I doubt it's rejecting them for being English English (as opposed to US English).

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
No joke! Just remember there is nowhere a law about spell faults! Traffic laws, yes, but there's no-one ever convicted making a spelling mistake.


It's also good to remember that English dictionaries and "correct" spellings are fairly recent developments (~1600-1800) and that English writers/readers got along just fine for quite a while without them.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
Wout Blommers wrote:
No joke! Just remember there is nowhere a law about spell faults! Traffic laws, yes, but there's no-one ever convicted making a spelling mistake.


It's also good to remember that English dictionaries and "correct" spellings are fairly recent developments (~1600-1800) and that English writers/readers got along just fine for quite a while without them.


But that also fits neatly into the situation, because what we need to do instead of making war is listen, talk, communicate. This is facilitated by common language (we need to understand each other), and a good knowledge of the workings of that language, so that we don't get misunderstandings that spark conflicts (like Abrahamite religions or sects arguing about the same God).

Which also begs the question: do we really want a world of absolute peace, which might resemble that 1984 world (haven't read the novel, taking a chance). Having a little bit of insight into a couple of languages, my opinion is that we need different languages to keep up flows of ideas.

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:
bachus wrote:
Wout Blommers wrote:
No joke! Just remember there is nowhere a law about spell faults! Traffic laws, yes, but there's no-one ever convicted making a spelling mistake.


It's also good to remember that English dictionaries and "correct" spellings are fairly recent developments (~1600-1800) and that English writers/readers got along just fine for quite a while without them.


But that also fits neatly into the situation, because what we need to do instead of making war is listen, talk, communicate. This is facilitated by common language (we need to understand each other), and a good knowledge of the workings of that language, so that we don't get misunderstandings that spark conflicts (like Abrahamite religions or sects arguing about the same God).

Which also begs the question: do we really want a world of absolute peace, which might resemble that 1984 world (haven't read the novel, taking a chance). Having a little bit of insight into a couple of languages, my opinion is that we need different languages to keep up flows of ideas.

/Stefan


Esperanto, is of course, the poster child for the failure of a noble drive to promote a common language for the sake of world peace. I know only one person who speaks it.

Personally I have a low opinion of humanity and think it would require a change much more profound than a common language to pacify this highly militant/violence loving species. It would be nice if we could just blame it on bad leaders with bad ideas, but one has only to look at "entertainment" in the free market so see what an irresistible draw violence and cruelty has on the minds of all peoples if not all people.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The people of Fairmont disgust me. I'm sure they would be happy to have a department of stupidity. I'm going to boycott hog products.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We already have a department of peace. It's called the State Department.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jamos wrote:
We already have a department of peace. It's called the State Department.


The mission statement of the U.S. Department of state. As you can see it does some what fuzzily encompass that goal.

Here is the statement of Responsibilities and Powers of the proposed Department of Peace and Nonviolence.

So I do not see that the two departments would do the same thing. Do you?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:

Here is the statement of Responsibilities and Powers of the proposed Department of Peace and Nonviolence.


The link doesn't work.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
bachus wrote:

Here is the statement of Responsibilities and Powers of the proposed Department of Peace and Nonviolence.


The link doesn't work.

a case of sabotage Question

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
bachus wrote:

Here is the statement of Responsibilities and Powers of the proposed Department of Peace and Nonviolence.


The link doesn't work.


I guess they don't want to make it too easy.

Go here
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:h.r.00808:
click on [Text of Legislation] Which should take you to H.R. 808
then look down for
SEC. 102. RESPONSIBILITIES AND POWERS.
and click on that.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jamos wrote:
We already have a department of peace. It's called the State Department.


I think you are right. We don't really need another cabinet level department. We just need to have people in the State Department that think peace is more desirable than war. The objective should be to convince the people that peace is a strategy that is most of the time more effective than military force. Arguing for a bureaucracy is counter productive, IMHO.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:

Which also begs the question: do we really want a world of absolute peace, which might resemble that 1984 world (haven't read the novel, taking a chance).


It's worse...

In 1984 there are three large world powers, about evenly matched. These are continually at war.

The idea is that war is a good way of getting rid of exess production, thus creating a state of continual scarcity which reinforces and emphasises the layered structure of socciety and so benefits the leadership of all three.

1984 deals with language in considerable depth, the government is continually revising language to make it harder to express political ideas.

If you look at how language is changing right now with words like "terorist", "pateriotïc" or "freedom" changing in more or less drastic fashion over the past years and some economies depending on war to keep functioning....

It's realy a very good book, can be read in about a day and if you (for some reason) can't find it it's available for free online.

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