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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » g2ools utilities
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Funky40



Joined: Sep 24, 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

just found it now Smile

my thinking goes in that direction of organising a kind of "groupbuys" for updates.
But it's maybe not realistic when thinking a bit deeper.
who would not be willed to pay 50€ for a good update. And think how much is 1000x50€ ................ e.g.

But: do we wish all the same ? Rolling Eyes

_________________________________________________________________________



another kind of community activity could be to point out first a "very concrete" List what an update should contain.
Maybe forces should be first put in this one.

would we not make it easyer for Clavia this way, maybe ?
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mother misty



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Funky40 wrote:

another kind of community activity could be to point out first a "very concrete" List what an update should contain.
Maybe forces should be first put in this one.

would we not make it easyer for Clavia this way, maybe ?


Good idea, I'm sure this would make it easier for clavia.
It would be nice if they would fix some obvious bugs first
(there are hardly any bugs but it would be nice if they would fix the rnd pattern module and some other stuff...)
and ofcourse everyone wants to see some new modules.... but which ones... ? Smile
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julien



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello all,

I think that one of the major concern for the NM* is longevity. Sooner than later, we won't be able to run the editor on modern OS, meaning we have to keep an old PC just for an editor... In my opinion this petition could request that clavia releases sufficient specifications to allow easy development of drivers and/or editors for modern OS. Indeed, I believe the nord wave will again come with a new set of usb driver and editor.

Concerning source release, its useless to request release of DSP code, it's obvious that this code is used in all the clavia products, and is their major asset. We could hope for a release of the editor code, which should not reveal internal "secrets" of the synth, but this is probably useless now when we see how nmedit is advanced.

Maybe renaming petition to something as "collective user request" would be good. I agree that petition sounds political. Anyway, the text should be very positive towards clavia. In a way we're all fans...

Julien
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3phase



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I dont know what state this Nomad open source editor is in yet..but i think they got pretty far ..so its probably not necessary anymore that clavia tells anything..

And you are wright that they probably dont release theire dsp code...
what actually would be nice to see some freaks doing new modules there Wink
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chresan



Joined: Jul 11, 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
I dont know what state this Nomad open source editor is in yet..but i think they got pretty far ..so its probably not necessary anymore that clavia tells anything..


You are right that most of the specs are known at this moment, but it would still save us a lot of time if they would publish the nm1 midi protocol. Regarding the petition I personally think we should look at the larger picture: If Clavia does not change their behaviour it is unlikely that they release the specs for upcoming synthesizers too (or now the G2). Perhaps the petition should make a general request and ask them to consider that they always publish the specs (and additionally the info for nm1/g2). There is no reason not to do it. For example each manual of Waldorf synthesizers I have seen document the midi protocol. I don't think it would be much work to publish this documentation - I am sure they already have it for their developers they just did not publish it.

I have read some demands in this forum to publish the source code of Clavia's editor. Even if the nmedit/nomad project had just started with it's work it would not be much help (to make it short: the editor is windows only - we would still have to start 'from scratch' to make it cross platform). But considering the current state of nomad I think it would hurt the nmedit project. I am sure that some people would start working on Clavias editor instead of working on Nomad, two editors would be in development which is just not necessary.

Altogether, they would serve the nmedit/similar projects most if they publish the midi specs and release the module icons/help files under an creative commons license.


Christian

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sawtooth



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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

chresan wrote:
Can it be that this thread is dead ? I hope not Wink


Well, sort of. To be honest I got pretty put off by the reluctance to sign up for something that was obviously a good idea even if it was formulated too vaguely. The choice of the word "petition" was perhaps not the best but still it should be easy to see that I never intended to go all political on Clavia, nor did I want to demand anything unreasonable. I'm a huge fan and I simply wanted to remind them about all of us out here, some of whom came up with excellent workarounds for problems that they themselves couldn't/wouldn't solve. After all, we're not a liability, we are a resource.

It's simply obvious that Clavia doesn't have the manpower/money to dedicate to development of the NM* platform at the moment. That is why I suggested trying to get them to release the source code in order to gain from the dedication of skilled users.

One idea would perhaps be a licensed "developer's kit" like i.e. Creamware has.

But I'm not a programmer and as this thread developed I realized that the source code is of course a major assett for Clavia, so let's forget about that idea. And I now see that it's real hard to find a simple way to express to Clavia what would be the best (and most reasonable) way to keep our beloved machines up-to-date and useful in the future.

I would love to pursue this matter further so please let's keep talking about this. Some great points have been made so far. Like someone said we can always go to Clavia as individuals, I did that even before I got the idea for a petition/namelist/whatever, but I still think that a collective effort is more likely to provoke a reaction.

I don't mind making a digest of the result of this discussion but I don't have much time on my hands. And I guess most of us here have the same problem. Let's keep coming up with constructive ideas and hopefully we can simply make an abstract of best ones and just send a link to our favourite makers of red wonders. No petition, no demands, just a few friendly and clever suggestions.

How about that?
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sawtooth wrote:
... I would love to pursue this matter further so please let's keep talking about this. Some great points have been made so far. Like someone said we can always go to Clavia as individuals, I did that even before I got the idea for a petition/namelist/whatever, but I still think that a collective effort is more likely to provoke a reaction.

I don't mind making a digest of the result of this discussion but I don't have much time on my hands. And I guess most of us here have the same problem. Let's keep coming up with constructive ideas and hopefully we can simply make an abstract of best ones and just send a link to our favourite makers of red wonders. No petition, no demands, just a few friendly and clever suggestions.

How about that?

There is a very simple way to get those things you're asking for... In fact, it's the only and reasonable way.
Take all your money out of your bank and try to get as many shares you can get in that company. Just buy them out. If you have a little more then 50% of all shares, you can tell them to do everything you want... It's the only way...

Wout
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sawtooth



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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
There is a very simple way to get those things you're asking for... In fact, it's the only and reasonable way.
Take all your money out of your bank and try to get as many shares you can get in that company. Just buy them out. If you have a little more then 50% of all shares, you can tell them to do everything you want... It's the only way...

Wout


I don't know how to respond to that. That's such a silly idea that it almost seems like a sarcasm. Or irony. But then again, everybody knows that irony doesn't work in cyberspace... Rolling Eyes

Why would I want to be the dictator of Clavia?

Strange post. Should I feel embarrassed or something?
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3phase



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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I dont undersatnd it either... but maybe its ment in the sense that its totaly unrealistic that clavia will release their DSP code..when i see how acurate things work in the nord modular system i guess thet competitors still can learn something..and clavia probably wont listen to any request in that direction aslong this kind of DSP code is no obsolete technology..
But who knows..maybe in some years ther is a guy that just backwards engineers it.. Some of this people that grew up with coding can be very surprising Wink

The MPC 1000 for example..maybe you know that a japanese guy rewrote the OS and made the small Mpc somehow better than the bigger modell..
I bet Akai dont really likes that...but its cool nevertheless..

Regarding the G2 we only can hope that clavia will do a bit more work on it.. Maybe there will be even a G3 one day? I hope the organ and the stage piano go well so they might have some time do it for fun and science.. The nordmodulars never was their main sellers.. But good for the image as a instrument company that also serves most modern synthsound demands... In fact with the new Wave Clavia is covering the whole Keybord segment.. Piano,Organ;Synth,Sampler...

Clavia has a pretty strong handwriting... specific..advanced..basic..dry.. functional...solid..

I think the G2 system fits well in the product line even when its more adressing the specialist freak sounddesigners..which by nature has to have a smaller market segment than the "mean" keyboard player Wink
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nor sarcasm nor irony, just being realistic.

If you make it clear to them to do what you want them to do is the best thing they can do, then you're completely right sending a petition or what ever. If you can't do that, being in charge is the most easiest way Smile

Another thing, doing something for them could make them listen to you. Are you part of a world wide known main stream act and are you willing to change you gear into something red, perhaps they are willing to listen while you talk. If not, most people want to continue making their living...

Indeed, the Modular fans is a rather small user group and most of it isn't active on the net to communicate about it.

It's just being realistic...

Wout
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sawtooth



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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:


...It's just being realistic...

Wout


OK. But since this is not going to happen, I wouldn't do that even if I had the means for it, perhaps it's better to focus on less radical means?

I mean, we're not a Big International Act, but together we represent far more revenue than any global superstar. Many of us perform with these instruments. I alone played, using only a Classic and a G2X, before at least 100 000 people in 20 countries last year and I'm sure there are people here who has far bigger reach than that. Together we do represent much more than our individual selves.

We don't even know how Clavia would react since nothing has been communicated to them yet. Like someone said, they probably read this forum with interest. But a few geeks babbling about something abstract will never make an impact.

I still think that if a significant portion of the active users get together and says: "hey, how about addressing these or those issues?" it would be a far more compelling argument.

So let's dump the idea of asking for the source code. It will never happen, it probably would be the first thing I'd protect if I bought the company, I have realized that now.

What then can be realistic? Suggesting a "Developer's kit" that is licensed à la Creamware? Or is that equally unrealistic?

The best solution would obviously be if Clavia themselves wrote a patch converter with a proper GUI. They could probably sell it. I'd buy it instantly if it was not insanely expensive.

Since it can obviously be done, very fast and in the spare time by one person who doesn't even have the source code, I don't think it's such a wild proposition. If we also point out that if there was a means of accurate and easy patch transfer it would compel a lot more users to invest in the G2, it would be even better. How about making a survey in the NM1 forum and ask how many would upgrade if they could bring their old patches along?
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sawtooth wrote:

OK. But since this is not going to happen, I wouldn't do that even if I had the means for it, perhaps it's better to focus on less radical means?

I mean, we're not a Big International Act, but together we represent far more revenue than any global superstar. Many of us perform with these instruments. I alone played, using only a Classic and a G2X, before at least 100 000 people in 20 countries last year and I'm sure there are people here who has far bigger reach than that. Together we do represent much more than our individual selves.

Do you have any figures about, let's say, the Classic? How well it sold during the five years of production? They aren't that high.
Quote:
We don't even know how Clavia would react since nothing has been communicated to them yet. Like someone said, they probably read this forum with interest. But a few geeks babbling about something abstract will never make an impact.

There's a long history of communication between the users and Clavia.
Quote:
I still think that if a significant portion of the active users get together and says: "hey, how about addressing these or those issues?" it would be a far more compelling argument.

The strange thing is Clavia does listen very well to their costumers. They really do. The folder of Switches in the G2 was an important input coming from them.
Quote:
So let's dump the idea of asking for the source code. It will never happen, it probably would be the first thing I'd protect if I bought the company, I have realized that now.

What then can be realistic? Suggesting a "Developer's kit" that is licensed à la Creamware? Or is that equally unrealistic?

Clavia has the policy everything must be able to be handled by them, any question any user will ask. No third party developments.
Quote:
The best solution would obviously be if Clavia themselves wrote a patch converter with a proper GUI. They could probably sell it. I'd buy it instantly if it was not insanely expensive.

If it would be profitable, they would have done this already...
Quote:
Since it can obviously be done, very fast and in the spare time by one person who doesn't even have the source code, I don't think it's such a wild proposition. If we also point out that if there was a means of accurate and easy patch transfer it would compel a lot more users to invest in the G2, it would be even better. How about making a survey in the NM1 forum and ask how many would upgrade if they could bring their old patches along?

Suddenly I am thinking about the guy who wants to sell his G2X, unless somebody will convert the NordLead2(X) patches he wants into the platform. Otherwise after the sale he will by a NordLead2X.

If you want your synth to sound like a NordLead, take (maybe you have to buy second hand first) a real NordLead.

Wout
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3phase



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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

what has patchcompatibility to do with nordleads?
Clavia never intended to have patchkompatibility..what was a mistake..
The benefits in the new design regarding certain scalings are rather academic than practical... Nobody is perfect... The converter is there and gives a basic compatibility... but it would be nice to allow the converter to do an even better job by just bringing back some allready exsistig code..
The fixed filterbank for example..But also other Nm1 exclusiv algorythms.

I really dont see a point in saying the Nm1 is a Nm1 and the G2 is a G2...

They are booth Nord Modulars... and there should´nt be exclusiv Nm1 modules.
That kept the Nm1 stronger on the market than it would have been necessary.. especially the engine is very reasonable priced in relation to what it can do.. I know many people that havent switched yet because its too much hazzle to do all theire specialised patches again...
with all controler routings aso.

The wishlist in the main forum shows that the demand after the original Nm1 modules like a 24bit delay on dsp base or the spectral oscilator is strong...

Its defenetly a good idea to show that demand to clavia because, opposite to new feature wishes, that are allready developed modules that just need to be implemeted.
Clavia well could reduce some of the exsisting modules for that... Shape osc b is rather useless.. i allmost never use it because its not so much cheaper that i ever came in the situation to bother...
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
Shape osc b is rather useless..


It's my No1 Oscillator Sad

Do you think Clavia should change the shape oscillator spectral wave code so that it behaves exactly like the NM1, or have a new oscillator as well the shape oscillator, that does almost the same thing.

The first option would require breaking many existing G2 patches. Crying or Very sad
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3phase



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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:
3phase wrote:
Shape osc b is rather useless..


It's my No1 Oscillator Sad

Do you think Clavia should change the shape oscillator spectral wave code so that it behaves exactly like the NM1, or have a new oscillator as well the shape oscillator, that does almost the same thing.

The first option would require breaking many existing G2 patches. Crying or Very sad



cant shape osc B not be replaced with shape osc a ?
Usually the memory usage is the critical point on the G2...the higher dsp consumption of shape osc a never was a big problem for me...

I also wouldnt mind that shape osc a gets the original algorythm with the overdriven level peak as standard and a bypass switch for the level boost to ensure compatibility to exsiting patches..
That shape osc a gets more expensiv than gets well paid by the better sound
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
Usually the memory usage is the critical point on the G2...


No it's not Very Happy

It depends a bit on what sort of patch, but usually I run out of cycles first.

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ian-s



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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
cant shape osc B not be replaced with shape osc a ?


It's the PWM rectangle that I use a lot. It is available on three different oscillators (dsp/mem).

Shape A 11.8/9.0
Shape B 2.7/2.3
OscB 5.0/2.9
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3phase



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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ok..they should modify shape osc a than.. or bring a classic osc that is doing formant and spectral oscilator in one module
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sawtooth



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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:

Do you have any figures about, let's say, the Classic? How well it sold during the five years of production? They aren't that high.
...
There's a long history of communication between the users and Clavia.
...
The strange thing is Clavia does listen very well to their costumers. They really do. The folder of Switches in the G2 was an important input coming from them.
...
Clavia has the policy everything must be able to be handled by them, any question any user will ask. No third party developments.
...
If it would be profitable, they would have done this already...
...
Suddenly I am thinking about the guy who wants to sell his G2X, unless somebody will convert the NordLead2(X) patches he wants into the platform. Otherwise after the sale he will by a NordLead2X. If you want your synth to sound like a NordLead, take (maybe you have to buy second hand first) a real NordLead.

Wout


1. Yes, I'm aware that the Classic was never a commercial megahit. But the amount of credibility they got from it was enormous. Not to mention the marketing value for the brand itself. I can't remember any new synthesizer that caused so much commotion since the dawn of the D-50 S+S revolution. Considering the complexity of the system it outsold Clavia's expectations by a good margin.

2. I ordered my Classic even before it was on the market so I'm fully aware of the vivid relationship between us users and Clavia that was involved. The Classic OS was upgraded many times due to that close contact. That's why I still think it's a good idea to try to renew that close interaction.

3. Yes, I know this too. That's why it bugs me that this compatibility issue hasn't been addressed even though Classic-G2 compatibility is (afaik) the most wanted improvement to the G2 platform. Clavia always said it couldn't be done. But now we know that it actually is possible.

4. Fair enough. So let's ask them to do it!

5. Profitable? If they could sell a few hundred more G2's (which I suspect hasn't sold even close to the numbers of the Classic) to reluctant Classic-users plus another few hundred upgrades, that would be quite a lot of money for a piece of software. No hardware involved, probably not a lot of R&D, no distribution costs... To me it seems like a good opportunity to make some extra profit.

6. I honestly don't think anyone buys a G2 to get an NL. If you choose to shell out the amount of money that it costs, you'd be a fool if you weren't pretty well informed about what kind of instrument you're buying. But I see your point, even if it's beside the point. No sane person buys a G2 only to emulate a Classic. If you do use the Classic and want to take advantage of the giant leap forward that is the G2 you most probably would prefer to bring the past with you as well. I still have my battered old Classic exactly for that purpose, which means that I lose a lot of money on excess luggage on flights, look like an ape from all the carrying and spend my days looking for a new 2:nd hand one since it's falling apart after all these years on the road.

The average price for a second hand Classic Key in Sweden is ~4-500 euro. I'd happily pay 300 euro for a fully working, easy-to-use conversion program/upgrade for the G2. If I was Clavia I would definitely listen to such arguments if it was presented by enough people to make it worthwhile.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

All true, to some extend, Sawtooth, but let me add some extra notes.

Writing software is indeed relatively cheap. but *developing* good software for expressive systems is quite hard and time-consuming. From my own experience; I can write a whole lot in a weekend, I can add a feature to my sequencer in a afternoon, even pritty elaborate things. Developing, on the other hand and designing (which goes before any typing is done) takes huge amounts of time of thinking, scetching, trying to get ideas from others. this stuff eats time by the bucket-load.

About the Lead-Modular thing; the same status you talk about in your first point affects buyers. Some people (particularly studios and stage musicians) want to be seen owning such a instrument but have no time/ skill/ inclination to program it themselves. This is a relatively large market, stage musicians and particularly big comercial studios have money for such things but many of them wouldn't benefit from a software update at all since they wouldn't use it anyway.

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dasz



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

Writing software is indeed relatively cheap. but *developing* good software for expressive systems is quite hard and time-consuming. From my own experience; I can write a whole lot in a weekend, I can add a feature to my sequencer in a afternoon, even pritty elaborate things. Developing, on the other hand and designing (which goes before any typing is done) takes huge amounts of time of thinking, scetching, trying to get ideas from others. this stuff eats time by the bucket-load.


Hey Kass,

It was so nice to meet you in person. I wish we had more time ...

In general I agree that design takes a whole lot more effort to produce vs writing s/w, but funny enough, in my case this is the opposite. My hand issues are back Sad so the design time seems to take more than the implementation part (as there is very-little/minuscule implementation time avail), so every second is accounted for.

Just consider yourself lucky to be pain free hand-wise.
/Dasz

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey, Dasz, this is quite mutual.

First of all, my post here was in the wrong topic, I wrote too quickly, assuming it was a different discussion. Patch conversion/compatibility is a different matter and likely most of cooking that up is quite boring and monotonous.

Anyway, it's sad to hear this, even more sad to hear this in writing. Have you ever experimented with speech to text programs? This wouldn't work with the G2 or MAX/MSP/JITTER but for something like SuperCollider or ChucK it might be fine?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am getting Naturally Speaking.
/Dasz

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Kassen
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Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That might be a excellent match for Python, considering that Python keeps punctuation to a minimum.
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dasz



Joined: Oct 16, 2004
Posts: 1640
Location: vancouver, canada
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G2 patch files: 56

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi kassen,

well, I just purchased to NaturallySpeaking preferred.

It is working okay for most phrases, however, for very specific things.,it's not all that great. I'm not sure I could use it for coding.

cheers.
/Dasz

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