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seraph
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think we are on the verge of going off topic Wink but Kas you are right, there are many things that don't make sense.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
I think we are on the verge of going off topic Wink


Well, yes and no. To me sexuality is closely related to gender, as a topic.

What I'm interested in here is why sexuality is so regulated, socially and with regard to law as I think that is also linked to social gender-roles.

Another matter is that I think that upon closer inspection what is and what isn't "sexual" is very vague as different people considder very different things to be sexual. Leather fetishism might be a good example; to most people leather clothing might simply be something that you wear because it's practical while to others it's a very sexual thing. We can determine a certain kind of excitement that most people have at times (some people lack it entirely) and we can determine that some things and acts are linked to that for many people but I don't think we realy know exactly what "sexuality" is.

To me this is quite odd and I think that this vagueness is related to some things being taboo, I also think this relates to larger cultural perceptions of sexuality and I think all of that has eventual effects on gender roles.

For example; would we have had this section at all if we wouldn't have had a predominantly male membership of which a majority is statistically likely to be atracted to women? What would happen if some group of people would rise up and sugest a section on "under-age boys in electronic music"?

I don't think any of this can be seen as seperate concepts in a vacuum.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
To me sexuality is closely related to gender, as a topic.


I think that gender is a separate topic because if you look at any kind of subgroup or minority, that group can be split in two, one more privileged than the other (men and women respectively). To me (even if I've heard about matriarchy as a concept) it seems that wherever I look I find women at the bottom of the social ladder, if they are visible at all.

/Stefan

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:

I think that gender is a separate topic because if you look at any kind of subgroup or minority, that group can be split in two, one more privileged than the other (men and women respectively). To me (even if I've heard about matriarchy as a concept) it seems that wherever I look I find women at the bottom of the social ladder, if they are visible at all.


Well, yes, at least when we're talking about the explicidly visible ladder. In practice I find that for smaller groups that share a geographical location women tend to have a LOT of influence. Not "power" per-se but influence.

It would be interesting to research the average amount of influence on final desisions of the group wielded by men and women for tribe-sized groups. I wouldn't be surprised to find some men at the top but that the average woman would have more influence then the average man.

But yes, that *is* a seperate topic in practice, even if I think it results from men having a larger need to compete because of how reproduction works (one child per woman per year v.s. men being able to father dozens in the same period if given the chance) so i still think it's related.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I still believe this is a music (and art) related forum.
May I put the question in a different form...

I it possible to recognize music made by a man or a woman?
If so, how can this be detected?

Is this possible in art?

In music there are some features which are related to time (history), related to culture (anthropology), political and more, which are clearly to the listener who knows the features. I, for instance, are able to detect Dutch composers of the beginning of the 20th century. They all have something in common, although I can't describe it.

I studied photography and sometimes I know the photograph is made by a woman. I just sense it. By subject, by tone (B&W), by angle and by the way people are presented... It's the same feeling as Mosc describes when there are now women in a group...

Anyway, only Käthe Kollwitz made art I could say it's typical female. Otto Dix typical male, I assume Wink

Wout


Kollwitz (There are 2 musea named after her!!!)
http://www.kollwitz.de/
Dix
http://www.nga.gov.au/Dix/index.cfm
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Seems like a seperate topic to me; a interesting and relevant one for sure but a seperate topic.

It is a music/art/technology forum but now that we have a section on this topic I feel it must also inherently be topical to investigate in what context we should see this sub-section and where exactly the preceived need for this section comes from.

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think the moderator has to tell us what's to be done.

Wout
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:

I it possible to recognize music made by a man or a woman?
If so, how can this be detected?


Thanks for that interesting question. If there is nothing obvious, I don't think I can tell.

But, like Kassen was saying, this is an ambiguous categorization (man/woman). To what extent does a homosexual male count as a woman? In athat case, I can't tell by listening to the music either.

I think science has determined that these are all independent:

Physical gender
Sexual preference
Gender characteristics.

Even in some rare cases, physical gender is ambiguous.

Still, within the acknowledged limitations of these categorizations - I can't tell, but I can tell a lot of the cultural background of the music, sometimes.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
To what extent does a homosexual male count as a woman?


I'd say "not at all"?

I don't think binary logic holds up here, realy. Counting a homosexual male as a woman (not saying you sugest this) would be like asuming somebody is a Democrat as he was overheard mentioning he's not a Republican, in a way... But then again; is being sexualy atracted to women realy a (detrimining and exclusively) masculine trait? Even if we considder the bear scene?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
the risk of being too open-minded is that your brain could fall out Cool


I wouldn't have thought that was possible, but I guess I was wrong Shocked

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
seraph wrote:
the risk of being too open-minded is that your brain could fall out Cool


I wouldn't have thought that was possible, but I guess I was wrong Shocked


No, you are wrong; you were right!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
I think the moderator has to tell us what's to be done.

Wout


do i have to tell you what you can and can't talk about? if so, i don't want to be a mod!

i do think it's good to tie the discourse of this topic back to the scope of the original forum, though. keep art and music in mind when reading/making posts, and beyond that, say whatever you want.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbinkovitz wrote:

do i have to tell you what you can and can't talk about? if so, i don't want to be a mod!


That is a tad ambiguous. It could be read to mean if we step out of certain undefined lines you dont' want the job. Or it could be an assertion of leissez-faire with the hope that we will at least look back at the forum title from time to time. Being that some of us here are creative to the point of being...uh lets see...oh yes..."mad as a hatter" I do hope it's the latter. If it's the former I want to know that "Howard started it mommy!"

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm sure it's the latter. Very Happy

The role of the moderator here is more like that of an angel that of a police officer.

I may have started it, but it is bigger than me, else I would have lost interest a long time ago.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:

The role of the moderator here is more like that of an angel that of a police officer.


I'd rather look at is as "janitors". There are a tad too many scriptural equivalents of Rodney King for my tastes.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
mosc wrote:
To what extent does a homosexual male count as a woman?


I'd say "not at all"


Yes, I agree.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:

I may have started it, but it is bigger than me, else I would have lost interest a long time ago.


Sorry to deflate you but the antecedent of the "it" wasn't E-M It was our spat over whether or not one could be so open minded that one's brains might fall out Laughing

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I guess my brains have been falling out for quite some time. Shocked
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbinkovitz wrote:
Wout Blommers wrote:
I think the moderator has to tell us what's to be done.

Wout


do i have to tell you what you can and can't talk about? if so, i don't want to be a mod!

i do think it's good to tie the discourse of this topic back to the scope of the original forum, though. keep art and music in mind when reading/making posts, and beyond that, say whatever you want.

Sorry if I used the wrong words, but I tried to say it's to the moderator if some text is off-topic or not. If off-topic, it can be moved to another thread.

Wout
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Beautiful sunset here, tonight. After weeks of rain and floods, it's nice to see the sun set in the north, although we're going to have glow all night. We're not as north as the Scandis but we still see some midnight glow.

And closer to the topic, art and music are as much about observation and interpretation as discourses about gender and sex are.

Good moderation isn't hard to achieve. Keep things on topic without being seen to be bossy or manipulative, and delete all spam. The second part is really easy.

I think, if the guys don't lighten up, no woman will want to participate. Which I am sure isn't what is intended. But in my opinion I think there are women who are really working in the field and they either work to the rules of the genre (which some apparently do) or they do whatever they want to do in silence, or outside of the community. As someone who has done that trip (self marginalisation) I just think that patience might be a good thing, people will come if they know a forum is there for them.

And this isn't the only community, to be fair. I think it's the best one, but I might be accused, correctly, of bias.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I might agree, it kinda depends on what you mean by "lighten up".
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I might agree, it kinda depends on what you mean by "lighten up".


well, what do you interpret "lighten up" to mean? Wink

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Merriam-Webster wrote:
lighten up
Function: intransitive verb
: to take things less seriously


Idea

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EdisonRex wrote:

well, what do you interpret "lighten up" to mean? Wink


I was torn between "more cheerfull" and "in less depth". the first might be a good idea, the second would be disastrous, IMHO. As I see it one of the primary strengths of EM is the amount of depth that subjects are treated with. Sections typical for EM like the ones on modulars, the ones of cerquit development and on audio programing languages depend on in-depth treatment.

If the question is; "What is gender? Where does it come from? Whose fault is it?" (and that's what it says on this subject)

I could also go;
1)it refers to what sort of peepee people have.
2)genes.
3) God! God is to blame and should be sued! I want a peepee that's capable of multiple orgasms too and now I want my money back! Ha ha ha ha!

Much lighter but it lacks any real depth or -for that matter- value and it doesn't help anyone. It's probably also insulting to trans-gendered people, as well as monotheisitic religious people, it'll make atheists groan... It'd likely be preferable to post "Mac's are as outdated as analogue synths" in some other section instead (let's not do that).

I don't realy see *why* it's so likely that our coverage of the issue will turn off women speciffically. I think it will turn off most people (male or female) because most people aren't used to reading this much, thinking about taboo subjects or dealing with issues where there are no clear "wong" or "right" sides. This is fine by me, most people are also turned off by making your own synthesisers or delving into music theory. This is why EM is atracting a certain kind of person. I don't see any value in atracting more women as such; women are a dime a dozen (exactly like men) the world is overpopulated and most people are in fact women, there is no need to atract them as there is no shortage of them. What I think is interesting is why -amongst the people that we do atract- there are so many more men. I can't imagine that that is caused by the way we treat subjects like this on, especially no since the gross majority of scientists in fields that deal with gender are in fact women who -presumably- are also trying to treat it as seriously as they can.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As far as I know, popular electro artists all fit pretty neatly into the traditional "male" or "female" category.

How does gender manifest in musical expression? Well, if it does, then it seems to be a matter of sexist socialization. Perhaps the unequal representation of women in electro is a matter of sexist socialization too. Look at the massive difference between boys' and girls' toddler clothing and how that represents the messages sent to us as we grow up. It's not surprising that a lot of people live up to the sexist cliches of male vs. female roles.

I feel a little ridiculous trolling a music forum trying to contemplate the nature and expression of gender. Can we please talk about less abstract stuff and more about how to set up a MIDI vagina here?
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