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 Forum index » Discussion » Diversity in electro-music
Abstractions
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bachus



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bernat wrote:
Look at the massive difference between boys' and girls' toddler clothing and how that represents the messages sent to us as we grow up. It's not surprising that a lot of people live up to the sexist cliches of male vs. female roles.


Ah! So it's the clothing manufacturers who are at fault! I confess that's an insight up with which I never would have come!

But are they the chicken or the egg, and if the egg, who laid it?

Hey! I'm trying to light up, but I'm in a dark phase right now Crying or Very sad and that's the best I can do Rolling Eyes .

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bernat



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, let's lighten up. It feels like boys against girls here.

(p.s. GIRLZ RULE, BOYZ DREWL)
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bbinkovitz



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bernat wrote:
Can we please talk about less abstract stuff and more about how to set up a MIDI vagina here?


that is for the MIDI vagina thread!
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bachus



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bernat wrote:

(p.s. GIRLZ RULE, BOYZ DREWL)


I think that's not far from my position. But it's hard to be objective or trust my judgment as my earliest encounters with the male gender weren't exactly positive. I have a very deep seated feeling that there is something profoundly wrong with men and that war, that most horrific and shameful of human endeavorers, is one expression of that wrongness. Temple Grandin's description of adolescent male whales engaging in what can only be described as viciously cruel play suggests to me that this wrongness runs as deep as testosterone which chemical is the force behind maleness from plants to humans. Personally I find that gamut as breath taking as the possible meanings it suggests.

Edit:

Though I tend toward very abstract thinking I believe that reason is mostly a pile of crap; A construct of rationalizations that we use to explain to our selves why it is we do what we do when, in fact, the actual reasons are predominantly emotional and pre-rational and pre-conscious. Thus the likely sources of one’s biases must always be upfront.

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Last edited by bachus on Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bbinkovitz



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
bernat wrote:

(p.s. GIRLZ RULE, BOYZ DREWL)


I think that's not far from my position. But it's hard to be objective or trust my judgment as my earliest encounters with the male gender weren't exactly positive. I have a very deep seated feeling that there is something profoundly wrong with men and that war, that most horrific and shameful of human endeavorers, is one expression of that wrongness. Temple Grandin's description of adolescent male whales engaging in what can only be described as viciously cruel play suggests to me that this wrongness runs as deep as testosterone which chemical is the force behind maleness from plants to humans. Personally I find that gamut as breath taking as the possible meanings it suggests.


aggressiveness is certainly a dangerous trait. and male hormones are shown to cause a proneness to agression. but i think to draw any more concrete conclusions than that is oversimplification. some of the most introspective, gentle, and caring people i have ever met have been men. just have to add that, in defense of the sweet/shy guys.
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bernat



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbinkovitz wrote:
some of the most introspective, gentle, and caring people i have ever met have been men. just have to add that, in defense of the sweet/shy guys.


Gross!
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I s'pose a lot of people would describe me as one of those sweet/shy guys. And a lot of testosterone laden rednecks wouldn't be so diplomatic! Laughing
That being said, I still believe there is a place for testosterone, and, a place for aggression. (God knows I could have used some!) Seriously though, it wouldn't be as endemic as you describe Bachus if it didn't serve a justified purpose of some kind. Uncontrolled, unquestioned, unchallenged, misplaced, and idolised aggression for it's own sake is what I despise.

BTW I smacked my little 3 year old daughter yesterday, and fully expect to feel like shit for the next week. Maybe that's why I'm writing this.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bernat wrote:
As far as I know, popular electro artists all fit pretty neatly into the traditional "male" or "female" category.


Likely so but that's because popular culture gravitates towards neatly fitting stereotypes and traditional categories. I can only think of Walter (later Wendy) Carlos as somebody who crossed that line as far as realy popular artists go (admittedly (s)he crossed it quite far).

If you dig a little deeper and get into less popular acts/artists/projects you'll find people play a lot more with category, stereotypes and tradition. Both Disco and House were originally mainly popular in the gay scene, for example. With a little efford you'll find many cases of musical subversion of traditional gender and sex categories. For one thing there are innumerable amounts of tracks about (or hinting at) having sex with machines or computers. While the artists themselves may predominantly be XX or XY chromosomal and have the matching genitals there are a lot who definately don't "neatly fit their traditional category" in their music, stage act or both.

Another mainstream artist (he's on MTV so mainstream);Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

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bachus



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Uncle Krunkus wrote:
Seriously though, it wouldn't be as endemic as you describe Bachus if it didn't serve a justified purpose of some kind.


Yes, but justified by what? The "selfish gene" I would say. Clearly there is some selective advantage for decency, compassion and love, but also clearly not enough. The Bonobos are proof that primates need not be as violent or as aggressive as chimps and humans simply to survive.

(If it were me I would simply ask her for her forgiveness. Something we all need from time to time.)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbinkovitz wrote:

aggressiveness is certainly a dangerous trait. and male hormones are shown to cause a proneness to agression. but i think to draw any more concrete conclusions than that is oversimplification. some of the most introspective, gentle, and caring people i have ever met have been men. just have to add that, in defense of the sweet/shy guys.


Yes, certainly. To quote myself from the initial thread of this sub-forum:

Quote:
Nature is both profligate and heedless in her creativity. A profound diversity of personality, traits and talents runs through all species. To assert a categorical absolute about the traits of any species is almost certain to be an injustice to it's individual members.


When I make such generalizations it is always with a recognition that it applies to statistical tendencies. Every animal, human or otherwise, deserves to be treated as the unique and complex individual it is.

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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

IMO Marilyn is male and female, electro, mainstream, aggressive, fragile, and a very talented, intelligent artist.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:

When I make such generalizations it is always with a recognition that it applies to statistical tendencies. Every animal, human or otherwise, deserves to be treated as the unique and complex individual it is.


Exactly. I don't even think it's such a good idea to sort people by triats like "sex", "nationality" or "skin colour" because nobody picks those for him or herself. You end up with those and as such I find them completely meaningless with regard to what aspects of people are worth my time.

The only moment when such generalisations have any use is discussions like the ones here. In practice you'll never hear music by "the platonic concept of women" but you'll hear a single piece at a time by a composer who might have a vagina and who might've grown up within a society that has a certain image about how the owner of a vagina is expected to behave (generally owners of peni (pinae?) aren't expected to compose either, it must be said).

I wouldn't even call myself "hetrosexual" because it's such a increadibly small minority of girls that I find atractive at all that gender isn't such a good criterium to sort on.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Uncle Krunkus wrote:
IMO Marilyn is male and female, electro, mainstream, aggressive, fragile, and a very talented, intelligent artist.


He also makes a great example in many discussions and it's wonderfull to play his very early pieces of drum-machine and cartoon-sample collages to unsuspecing techno-elitists!

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