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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
frequency shifter
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goldenechos



Joined: Jun 06, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I mwould pick up one of those boards.

TR
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
JH, have you considered using laser trimmed multipliers? IMHO, they are pretty fantastic.


AD633 ?

This doesn't perform triangle to sine conversion! Razz

I have considered the 633, because it's smaller and needs less external components.
But it's more expensive, harder to get, has no second source (AFAIK), and you still need to trim the offsets on each input. The only real advantage is that it cancels the quadratic feedtru term internally, without trimming. You need to to this with an extra trimpot on a MC1496. (Well, it's rarely done; I haven't had it in the FS-1 either. I learned about this from the EMS VCS3 ringmod circuit: With the offset trimmer, you minimise carrier bleedthru. What remains then, is a slight bleedthru at _twice_ the carrier frequency. You can suppress this with an extra trimpot. When you do this, the your bleedthru specs come close to an AD633.)

So with an AD633, I'd have one trimmer less than with a MC1496.
But I'd have to implement the whole triangle-to-sine conversion (with trimmers, of course!) with a separate circuit.

The beauty (if I may say so) of my 1496-based circuit is that it uses the input transitors of the multiplier to _also_ perform the required triangle-to-sine conversion! So you can drive the modulators directly with a set of quadrature triangle signals. The Sine conversion is even better than the overdriving-OTA method that is often seen, because it uses a degenerated emitter transistor pair, which allos for lower THD than just a differential pair. (It is not as good as a two-stage approach, like the Moog Modular VCOs use, though.)

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good explanation, thanks.
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my music and other stuff
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jksuperstar



Joined: Aug 20, 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As usual, why buy one, when you can have 2 at twice the price?

Count me in for 2, please!

-justin
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funkyfarm



Joined: Jan 21, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

a short description of the effect is here, for non-technician

http://hallgeir.no/hmt/fs-1/


and more sound clips to salivate

Last edited by funkyfarm on Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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sonicwarrior



Joined: Dec 22, 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Interest here, too. salut thumleft
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tomcat



Joined: Oct 14, 2005
Posts: 141
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jürgen,

I think the preselection is one part of the DIY thing and has to make fun Wink
Honestly, if somebody can not calibrate a diy project with standard tools like a good multimeter hes not ready for that kind of project. If we go to more advanced stuff like osci, frequ counter and so on it may be different. But even for the blacet kits you need these tools, so ... Question

I really would prefer to see you continue developing and sharing nice or crazy things, then to see you suffering selecting and soldering 100reds of caps.

Just my 2 cents
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goldenechos



Joined: Jun 06, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Agreed.

TR
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funkyfarm



Joined: Jan 21, 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

New version is "fs2" ?

http://jhaible.heim.at/jh_fs2/jh_fs2.htm

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

funkyfarm wrote:
New version is "fs2" ?

http://jhaible.heim.at/jh_fs2/jh_fs2.htm

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.


No.

The front panel is from FS-1.

FS-2 was planned as a standalone unit, but then became part of the Matrix FX, where it's called "SSB Mod" (Single Sideband Modulator).
It uses insanely expensive parts (partly for reasons that lie in the context of the Matrix FX, and don't have much to to with frequency shifting).

What I'm going to bring to PCBs is an updated version of the FS-1.
Inexpensive components, good quality, thru-zero carrier, capability of slow barberpole phasing.

Can't avoid a lot of trimmers, though.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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prophei



Joined: Jan 27, 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i'd be interested in a pcb. =]
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Kerr_Avon



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:44 am    Post subject: Oh er yes, a future classic Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd go for a couple. Mine has a bit too much feedthrough:]
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is just preliminary information, but at the moment it looks like this:

The whole Frequency Shifter, except the dome filter, will probably fit on a single Euro format board (160mm x 100mm).

This won't include a power supply or microphone preamp.

(needs +/-15V stabilized dual voltage, and works on line level to synth level.)

The dome filter board will be much smaller (160mm x 45mm)
See:
http://jhaible.heim.at/matrix_fx/jh_matrix_fx_dome_photo.jpg

That way, wiring will be kept reasonable, *and* the board size isn't too big for MOTM or similar synthesizers.

JH.


unfinished_main_fs1a_pcb.jpg
 Description:
Teaser screenshot of yet unfinished FS-1A main board
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unfinished_main_fs1a_pcb.jpg



_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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Fernando



Joined: Dec 30, 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

niiice!
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prophei



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sorry, i am a little bit new here... what is the dome filter exactly, and how does it relate to this frequency shifter?

thanks!
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StephenGiles



Joined: Apr 17, 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm definitely interested.
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toppobrillo



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

verry nice very niiice
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

prophei wrote:
sorry, i am a little bit new here... what is the dome filter exactly, and how does it relate to this frequency shifter?

thanks!


It's an essential part of the Frequency Shifter (at least of that specific method of frequency shifting).

Mathematically, it's an approximation of a Hilbert transformation Twisted Evil - which produces a phase shift of exactly 90 deg (+/- a very small error) for any frequency within a certain range (within the whole audio range, in that case).

More about the various components of a Frequency Shifter:
http://jhaible.heim.at/tonline_stuff/hj_fs.html

Also google for "Single Sideband Modulation"

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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prophei



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
prophei wrote:
sorry, i am a little bit new here... what is the dome filter exactly, and how does it relate to this frequency shifter?

thanks!


It's an essential part of the Frequency Shifter (at least of that specific method of frequency shifting).

Mathematically, it's an approximation of a Hilbert transformation Twisted Evil - which produces a phase shift of exactly 90 deg (+/- a very small error) for any frequency within a certain range (within the whole audio range, in that case).

More about the various components of a Frequency Shifter:
http://jhaible.heim.at/tonline_stuff/hj_fs.html

Also google for "Single Sideband Modulation"

JH.


ok, so then if without this filter the board may be euro compatible, would the smaller filter board be particularly difficult to mount behind a euro rack faceplate with it? i am assuming that you just meant it didn't fit on one pcb...correct?

thank you

Smile
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

prophei wrote:
jhaible wrote:
prophei wrote:
sorry, i am a little bit new here... what is the dome filter exactly, and how does it relate to this frequency shifter?

thanks!


It's an essential part of the Frequency Shifter (at least of that specific method of frequency shifting).

Mathematically, it's an approximation of a Hilbert transformation Twisted Evil - which produces a phase shift of exactly 90 deg (+/- a very small error) for any frequency within a certain range (within the whole audio range, in that case).

More about the various components of a Frequency Shifter:
http://jhaible.heim.at/tonline_stuff/hj_fs.html

Also google for "Single Sideband Modulation"

JH.


ok, so then if without this filter the board may be euro compatible, would the smaller filter board be particularly difficult to mount behind a euro rack faceplate with it? i am assuming that you just meant it didn't fit on one pcb...correct?

thank you

Smile


I'm not so good at mechanical stuff - you have to figure out a clever way to mount it behind the front panel of your choice. I was only talking about the board size, not about compatibility with (Euro) rack systems.

Two boards; one 160 * 100, one 160 * 45.

ETA: that's not quite right; see below ...

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)

Last edited by jhaible on Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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radioland



Joined: Jun 26, 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:


I'm not so good at mechanical stuff - you have to figure out a clever way to mount it behind the front panel of your choice. I was only talking about the board size, not about compatibility with (Euro) rack systems.

Two boards; one 160 * 100, one 160 * 45.

JH.


A complex and expensive project, but a very interesting sound effect.
I would take this two boards.
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krisp14u



Joined: Nov 11, 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
This is just preliminary information, but at the moment it looks like this:


JH.


I've got way 2 much to build but if i don't sign up i will never forgive my self
so put me doown for 1 or 2 Smile

also looks a nice bord JH good work

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Paul Darlow

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vtl5c3



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Juergen,

If someone wanted to build a stereo unit, they would simply need to buy two of each board, correct?

Romeo
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Fernando



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

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Master of Circles



Joined: Jun 27, 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello out there at the screens,

I am interested in one or two Shifters.

thanks in advance,

Master of circles
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