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 Forum index » Discussion » Diversity in electro-music
Minorities in electro
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bernat



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:51 am    Post subject:  Minorities in electro
Subject description: Discussion of groups other than women that are minorities in electro
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It's been brought up in other threads. Thought I'd make a space for it.
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stringtapper



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well I'll start by quoting you from one of the other threads in this forum:

bernat wrote:
Assuming there is an equal ratio of men and women in the world (and I think there is, approximately) why is the male to female ratio so disproportionate at events like Electro PA?


I think the issue of calling women a "minority" is important to address.

The third definition of "minority" from the Oxford Dictionary:

"-a relatively small group of people, esp. one commonly discriminated against in a community, society, or nation, differing from others in race, religion, language, or political persuasion."

So it seems that women would not fall under that definition if the world is indeed equally (or at least relatively equally) divided between the sexes.

Now if we are saying that women are a minority in electro-music, and that's what this thread attempts to parallel with regard to "other" minorities in electro-music, then we should clarify that.

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dewdrop_world



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

stringtapper wrote:
I think the issue of calling women a "minority" is important to address.

The third definition of "minority" from the Oxford Dictionary:

"-a relatively small group of people, esp. one commonly discriminated against in a community, society, or nation, differing from others in race, religion, language, or political persuasion."


Well, ya missed part of the definition.

...esp. one commonly discriminated against in a community, society, or nation...

(Insert commonly-repeated observations about glass ceilings, gender inequality in salary levels, sexual objectification, etc. etc. etc.)

So perhaps "minority" is misassociated with this concept but I'm not sure we have a better word for large groups that historically have endured discrimination.

James

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stringtapper



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No, no I didn't. I just took into account all of the definition. The beginning of it states clearly "a relatively small group of people." Sorry but I don't pick and choose which parts of a definition to apply to a word. It all has to apply and +/- 50% doesn't apply as "relatively small." So although the part of the definition you cited may be applicable to women, but the entire definition isn't. Your citing of only part of the definition is exemplary of why people mislabel women as a minority in the first place.
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bernat



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks, James. That's basically what I was going to point out.

Certain races and religions, etc. may not be considered a minority world wide, but are excluded or poorly represented in groups of privilege or so-called open access groups.

So, like we have with sexism, let's debate whether racism actually exists in electro. Perhaps it may not be outright and "malicious", if it does exist. Is electro on the whole homogeneous as far as "race"? Is it a matter of class? <- Is that a racist supposition
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dewdrop_world



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

stringtapper, I think we basically agree that "minority" might not be the best word to use here, because even in the dictionary its meaning is confused.

What we're looking for is a compact word that expresses the idea of "frequently the victim of discrimination"... and in common usage, "minority" has come to mean that.

I just don't have a better word for that at the moment...

Anyway, I'm gay, which makes me almost certainly a minority among electro-music folks but I don't feel discriminated against at all... not here anyway. In the neanderthal legislature of my home state of Virginia, absolutely, we get discriminated against all the time, but electro-music folks seem genuinely not to care one way or another that my spouse is a man, not a woman.

James

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

it's always difficult to separate class from other factors of cultural heritage when discussing the historical roots of current trends.

i don't think it's racist to assume that different cultural groups (including ethnic groups (at least the members thereof who identify with the historical culture (now this is tricky because it's like justifying stereotypes by saying "well only the ### who ### are ###-ing ###s."))) are affected differently by the class structure.
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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What a load of nonsense, hang ups and inferiority complexes!
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bernat



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

StephenGiles wrote:
What a load of nonsense, hang ups and inferiority complexes!


Just today I went to a supermarket in a predominately white, suburban area (my hometown) with a black friend (I'm puerto rican), and the group of people around the door (around a dozen) flat out turned around, stopped their carts in their tracks and gave us these blank, confused, or disapproving stares. On my peripheral, I noticed a woman with her mouth hanging open who followed us with her stare as we walked to the back of the store.

My friend was the first to comment, and we jokingly decided out loud that everyone must have been staring because we're so awesome..

Perhaps nobody meant any harm by it. Sure, nobody's getting lynched (yet, I think it's only been a couple decades since racial lynchings have happened around here though). Perhaps our "moaning" is part of an inferiority complex, but it's one that might not be an issue if we hadn't been made to feel strange, substandard or less valuable in other more or less subtle ways our entire cognizant lives.

I doubt stuff like this would be a problem at events like E-M, but it's still worth discussing since it's a bigger electro world out there.

In conclusion, if all you can make are denigrating statements about the validity of this, I'd like to be the first to ask you to take them elsewhere.
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dewdrop_world



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, for [insert deity]'s sake, don't feed the trolls.

People like that just say inflammatory things to get a rise out of you. If you ignore this type, he really will go away. But if you answer in the way that you did, he will get some pathetic sort of satisfaction out of it.

People like that should be pitied but not indulged.

James

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bernat



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:
Oh, for [insert deity]'s sake, don't feed the trolls.

People like that just say inflammatory things to get a rise out of you. If you ignore this type, he really will go away. But if you answer in the way that you did, he will get some pathetic sort of satisfaction out of it.

People like that should be pitied but not indulged.

James


I have trouble imagining that people like that would frequent this place..
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bernat wrote:

I have trouble imagining that people like that would frequent this place..


we should send him to instrife.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Just today I went to a supermarket in a predominately white, suburban area (my hometown) with a black friend (I'm puerto rican), and the group of people around the door (around a dozen) flat out turned around, stopped their carts in their tracks and gave us these blank, confused, or disapproving stares. On my peripheral, I noticed a woman with her mouth hanging open who followed us with her stare as we walked to the back of the store.


It's absurd that one would get a reaction like that in Virgina in this day and age. I'm from Kansas, which certainly couldn't be considered a top contender for the most socially advanced state of the union, but that would be pretty rare here (in my experience).

I am in a biracial marriage. Not once in eleven years of marriage do I remember anybody pointing or standing agape as my wife, son and I have cavorted in public. My wife has yet to have had a racial epithet thrown at her, nor my son. I wish I could say the same about me, but I can't. Not because I'm in a biracial marriage, but because I'm white. These epithets are sanctioned, because I belong to an historically evil majority "race", and am guilty by association.

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bbinkovitz



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
I wish I could say the same about me, but I can't. Not because I'm in a biracial marriage, but because I'm white. These epithets are sanctioned, because I belong to an historically evil majority "race", and am guilty by association.


there's a NOFX song about this.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bernat wrote:
Just today I went to a supermarket in a predominately white, suburban area (my hometown) with a black friend (I'm puerto rican), and the group of people around the door (around a dozen) flat out turned around, stopped their carts in their tracks and gave us these blank, confused, or disapproving stares. On my peripheral, I noticed a woman with her mouth hanging open who followed us with her stare as we walked to the back of the store.


I know this kind of thing happens all the time. It must be terribly frustrating. It's hard for white males to understand this because we never experience it. I used to travel with a marketing manager who was black. We were discussing this. When we traveled together I never noticed any discriminatory behavior. He challenged me to pick a store at random, to go in first for about five minutes and then see what would happen when he walked in.

Well, I went in and looked at the merchandise. The middle aged white sales lady looked up at me and went back to her business. When my friend walked in and started looking at the merchandise, she walked over to where she could see him and watched him carefully. Shit, he was a middle aged man that probably made over $100,000 a year. He was wearing a very expensive suit. Still, she was watching him like he was a certain shop lifter. She was unconcerned about me. He said that was typical and expected.

That was twenty years ago, but I still remember it clearly.

Anyway, just another example. I've felt this kind of reception when walking around in an orthodox Jewish neighborhood without the traditional outfit and hair cut.

Back to the topic. I wish we had more racial diversity in electro-music, but I'm glad we have a good cross section of age groups. That is very good here. We also have an excellent distribution of academic and non-academics. I'm very pleased with that too. Also, we have a good distribution of musical styles. Here, the beat oriented musicians feel comfortable with the classical, space music, and avant-garde / experimental folks.

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bernat



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:

These epithets are sanctioned, because I belong to an historically evil majority "race", and am guilty by association.


I'm sorry for this; it's no less out of line when it's directed at the "historically evil majority race". Confused
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I wish we had more racial diversity in electro-music, but I'm glad we have a good cross section of age groups. That is very good here. We also have an excellent distribution of academic and non-academics. I'm very pleased with that too. Also, we have a good distribution of musical styles. Here, the beat oriented musicians feel comfortable with the classical, space music, and avant-garde / experimental folks.

Howard, I guess you forgot to mention the diversity of people from all-around the world meeting here Very Happy

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bernat



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I know this kind of thing happens all the time. It must be terribly frustrating. It's hard for white males to understand this because we never experience it. I used to travel with a marketing manager who was black. We were discussing this. When we traveled together I never noticed any discriminatory behavior. He challenged me to pick a store at random, to go in first for about five minutes and then see what would happen when he walked in.

Well, I went in and looked at the merchandise. The middle aged white sales lady looked up at me and went back to her business. When my friend walked in and started looking at the merchandise, she walked over to where she could see him and watched him carefully. Shit, he was a middle aged man that probably made over $100,000 a year. He was wearing a very expensive suit. Still, she was watching him like he was a certain shop lifter. She was unconcerned about me. He said that was typical and expected.

That was twenty years ago, but I still remember it clearly.


Sadly, that same scenario is regularly reenacted on a regular basis 20 years later. It's easy to laugh it off and commiserate, but regardless I think it still leaves a mark on self-perception..

mosc wrote:
Back to the topic. I wish we had more racial diversity in electro-music, but I'm glad we have a good cross section of age groups. That is very good here. We also have an excellent distribution of academic and non-academics. I'm very pleased with that too. Also, we have a good distribution of musical styles. Here, the beat oriented musicians feel comfortable with the classical, space music, and avant-garde / experimental folks.


Indeed. Props!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Back to the topic. I wish we had more racial diversity in electro-music ....

I'll suggest to ask our good old friend from the NordModular List, Kofi *Busia*, to join us. He always writes very clearly and full of humor about this subject.

Wout
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
mosc wrote:
I wish we had more racial diversity in electro-music, but I'm glad we have a good cross section of age groups. That is very good here. We also have an excellent distribution of academic and non-academics. I'm very pleased with that too. Also, we have a good distribution of musical styles. Here, the beat oriented musicians feel comfortable with the classical, space music, and avant-garde / experimental folks.

Howard, I guess you forgot to mention the diversity of people from all-around the world meeting here Very Happy


I don't think we can say for sure that electro-music.com is not racially diverse, because I'm sure there are lots of people here who have never proclaimed to be of a specific race (or indeed a specific gender or age), because it is simply not needed. Many people have no avatars or abstract pictures as avatars. Having race/gender/age statements attached to your profile is something that is rarely seen here. I like that.

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:

I don't think we can say for sure that electro-music.com is not racially diverse, because I'm sure there are lots of people here who have never proclaimed to be of a specific race (or indeed a specific gender or age), because it is simply not needed. Many people have no avatars or abstract pictures as avatars. Having race/gender/age statements attached to your profile is something that is rarely seen here. I like that.

/Stefan


i like that too, but at the PA events it has been noticeable that there are few women and even fewer racial minorities. discussion of EM07 is what led to the creation of this forum. the online identities thing is complicated since more people participate in the forum than come to the events.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:23 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
I'll suggest to ask our good old friend from the NordModular List, Kofi Busia, to join us. He always writes very clearly and full of humor about this subject.


KOFI! Wow. That's a name I haven't heard for a long time. I love that guy.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

smokris wrote:
KOFI! Wow. That's a name I haven't heard for a long time. I love that guy.


He is still showing up on the NM list occasionally. Last time electro-music was mentioned there Kofi didn't seem quite ready to join us here. Maybe Wout could try to push or pull him a bit, he would fit in perfectly Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
mosc wrote:
Back to the topic. I wish we had more racial diversity in electro-music ....

I'll suggest to ask our good old friend from the NordModular List, Coff *Bush*, to join us. He always writes very clearly and full of humor about this subject.

Wot

Yes Wot. You do that. I always en enyoyed his "lectures"

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

stringtapper wrote:
No, no I didn't. I just took into account all of the definition. The beginning of it states clearly "a relatively small group of people." Sorry but I don't pick and choose which parts of a definition to apply to a word. It all has to apply and +/- 50% doesn't apply as "relatively small." So although the part of the definition you cited may be applicable to women, but the entire definition isn't. Your citing of only part of the definition is exemplary of why people mislabel women as a minority in the first place.


I think stringtapper's problem is simply that of an Aristotelian mind trying to deal with the real Fuzzy (logic) world. Always a long and painful process for all involved. No malice or intent to troll needed to explain it--IMO

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