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 Forum index » Discussion » Diversity in electro-music
Age diversity
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bbinkovitz



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:47 pm    Post subject: Age diversity Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

split off from the "other minorities" thread:

yes, i had noticed the age diversity at the events, and also the ease with which different age groups interact. in our society as a whole there is a deep mistrust of "kids", whatever that means, and "adults" are frequently snotty to us. not so at electro!

Last edited by bbinkovitz on Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bbinkovitz



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:
bbinkovitz wrote:
in our society as a whole there is a deep mistrust of "kids"

... and, sometimes, vice versa ("Don't trust anyone over 30").


quite true! but i think people over 30 often anticipate this attitude from young people who don't have it, though. (and tend to group anyone under 30 into the same group, "teenagers".)

on saturday, vostek, smokris, hubcap (vostek's lady friend), and i were doing an audio/visual jam in the front yard of the condo smokris and i share. since the condo pool (which is right on the other side of the small parking lot) is open until 11 on saturday nights, we figured we'd make sure we were done by 11 and try not to be excessively loud in the meantime. of course, we couldn't even start until after 9 because we had to wait for dark for the projected visuals to be visible.

we got a few positive responses from "kids" (people from about 20-25 probably) and some people over 30 out walking mostly ignored us. then, around 10.30, a "soccer mom" type (i don't mean this disparagingly; this label is just meant to describe her age, appearance, and situation in life) comes out and tells us we're keeping her kids awake and do we know how late it is? we responded by turning off the sound immediately and saying that we'd planned to be done by 11, since we'd used the pool hours as a guide. she was very offended, looking in disbelief back and forth between the visuals (projected on the side of a condo, being careful not to project into their windows) and us, and finally sputtered that the late hours in the pool were for "adults who wanted to get peace and quiet from kids" (her emphasis). and that it was "condo rules!" i asked if the video was ok, since it was the sound specifically she'd complained about. she said "no!" in that sort of rising cadence that implies "of course it's not ^*%&&( okay, what is wrong with you???!" so we started to shut stuff down and take it inside. as she was walking back to her house, she shot over her shoulder, "there are basements for that stuff, you know! i mean, if you even live around here!" i guess she assumed our mommies and daddies would never let us wild teenagers do such valueless crap in the actual living room (which is where smokris and i have a projector mounted to the ceiling for doing visual jams, and where we would normally have done it, but for vostek's severe allergies to our cats and dust in the carpet in that room). anyway, i'd been really nice and been talking in a soft and considerate tone the whole time, but that comment and the way she said it really upset me so before i could stop my self i shot back, "THANKS for that INFORMATION!" in a kind of snotty voice. without turning around, she said, "well you're just being really inconsiderate!" and slammed her door.

of course, she didn't need to invoke "condo rules" or try to make us feel like total lowlifes for us to stop. had she asked nicely we would have stopped the sound just as instantly.

the thing that really gets me about this, though, is that a lot of people think this is totally normal and she had a right to be snotty to us. if you think that, think about this: how would she have acted if her kids had actually been watching her? how would she have reacted if she saw her kids talking to someone the way she was talking to us? would she have spoken to us the same way had she noticed that our power cable led into a condo on the block next to hers?

her attitude toward us was probably affected by the assumption that even if we were her neighbors, she'd never have to deal with us except through our parents. i doubt she even considered the possibility that smokris and i constitute a household in the direct vicinity of hers, and that we've probably waved to each other and if i saw her struggling with her groceries or trash i'd have stopped to help (as i've done with other neighbors recently).

her assumptions and attitudes made me feel totally unwanted in our neighborhood and only strengthened my desire to find a place to live where people don't consider having to talk to each other a big inconvenience. this is the case in so many places; people find any reason to assume that those around them have nothing to give. everyone amounts to no more than an inconvenience until they prove otherwise. and if anything about you stands out, whether it's your pink and purple hair, your facial piercings, your artistic activities, or your dark skin or foreign accent, people focus all their misanthropy right on you for as long as you're in their line of fire.

perhaps that's what makes the electro events so amazingly welcoming -- we've all been told to "turn that &^$& down!!" and so we value each other's music and the process of making it, even when it's not to our tastes.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This particular instance may/may not be an age discrimination issue (not that it doesn't exist). My personal theory is the type of behaviour displayed by Ms. Soccer takes a lifetime to perfect, and is most likely universally practiced on anyone who isn't...well.....her.

If anybody needed a "put a sock in it" counseling, it certainly would have to be this person. Complaining is within her right, I suppose, but to persevere in rudeness when none has been offered is downright sock-inviting.

FWIW, my youthful improv jam interruptions usually involved the local gendarme, but they were always more polite than this person.

Cheers,
Scott

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this doesn't have much to do with electro, but this story is just so bizarre i have to post it.

smokris, robert (who was at EM05), robert's gf kaela, a few of robert and kaela's friends, one of the employees of steve and robert's own small business (http://kosada.com/) and i were all at a local steak 'n' shake on the way home from columbus' big fireworks display. there were eight of us in all ages ranging from 19 to 25, although a few arrived after we'd been seated, and every person ordered something, like a shake or fries or whatever. they were waaaaay understaffed, and also had a new guy starting that night who couldn't operate the shake machine, and it was also fairly busy when we arrived, so we had a long wait to be seated and to get our food and shakes. the whole time we were sympathetic with the rushed waitstaff, and kaela even gave one of the servers a thumbs up and told her she's doing great.

when we were seated, we'd asked to split the bill but they'd brought it to us all on one check, but divided by seat. so we took it up to the register, each of us figuring out how much we'd have to pay for our own stuff, when this woman with a maybe eight-year-old daughter comes in and, while waiting to be seated, proceeds to harrass us, telling us what we're doing is incredibly rude and inconsiderate, saying "you guys are all friends, why can't one person just pay for it to spare this poor guy having to divide it up?" (though i'd never met most of the people in our party before that night) and saying she was sick of inconsiderate "kids". someone incredulously repeated back, "kids?" and she looked straight at me and said, "yes. children." we had no idea what to do and suspected she might be drunk, but we had to stand there until they were done dividing the check. the cashier didn't say a word the whole time and kept his eyes on the register. in between berating us, the woman kept loudly telling her daughter that she hoped she would never behave this way when she got to be a teenager. at some point, someone asked her point blank if she was drunk (her speech was a bit bleary sounding, so it was possible) and she got really offended, saying that she is a nightclub owner and she just got off work and all manner of other things, insinuating that we were basically not members of society in any meaningful way and most likely without basic human emotions.

i guess it should have been funny, but it was like 2am and i was really tired, not up to coming up with snappy comebacks to unanticipated beratement, and it was a really stressful situation for me that, combined with the incident last week, made it hard to sleep when i finally did get home.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You know, it might sound strange, but if could be really interesting to invite her over for a cup of tea, coffee, hot chocolate (perhaps laced with Bailey's?), just find out more about her. She sounds really frustrated about something (her kids might have something to do with it) -- maybe if she has a chance just to be listened to, you might be less scary to her.

That's easy for me to say, of course -- if I were in your position, I would probably stay away from her as much as possible! But maybe there's a better way... she's always free to refuse.

It would also be interesting to see if the condo association would consent to a multimedia night. People could bring ice cream, watermelon, strawberries, make good wholesome root beer floats and banana splits, chat with neighbors and enjoy live music. The kids could watch what you're doing -- great educational opportunity!

I'm dreaming... suburban conformity would kill that one before it even got going. Maybe this sort of thing is always destined to be guerrilla art.

James

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bbinkovitz



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:
You know, it might sound strange, but if could be really interesting to invite her over for a cup of tea, coffee, hot chocolate (perhaps laced with Bailey's?), just find out more about her. She sounds really frustrated about something (her kids might have something to do with it) -- maybe if she has a chance just to be listened to, you might be less scary to her.


yeah, i didn't see exactly which condo is hers. i was thinking of leaving a "sorry we got a bad start" note but in the dark i couldn't see which door she went in.

Quote:

It would also be interesting to see if the condo association would consent to a multimedia night. People could bring ice cream, watermelon, strawberries, make good wholesome root beer floats and banana splits, chat with neighbors and enjoy live music. The kids could watch what you're doing -- great educational opportunity!

I'm dreaming... suburban conformity would kill that one before it even got going. Maybe this sort of thing is always destined to be guerrilla art.


yeah we'd probably get fined for even bringing it up.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There are very unhappy grumpy people all over. You can't avoid them not matter what age, gender, race or culture you present to them. If they can't find any obvious thing to not like about you it will be the expression on your face. It doesn't do much good to respond to these people with anything but compassion. Anything else brings you down into their hole. Unless you take the bait, they are nothing more to you than bad weather or a stomach virus.

I think this was called suffering fools gladly by somebody like Kipling.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's a story on the opposite side. I was checking out the blogtv site as part of an interest I have in internet TV. I hope to have something going next year at electro-music 2008. Anyway, on this site you can join up and watch live "shows" from people with web cams. The shows are really beyond boring. On one show there were a male and female who looked to be teens or in their early twenties. Anyway, I watched their show for about 1 minute and they looked up and noticed 5 or 6 viewers who were immediately blocked from their chat room. The reason given was that they didn't want to talk to a bunch of old men who were out there masturbating, as that was disgusting.

There is absolutely no way for me or anyone else to take this personally. But still, just hearing old men talked of that way was not pleasant. Feeling compassion for those people isn't too hard for me; letting go of the hurt feelings is more difficult but I can handle it. Suffering fools gladly can be challenging sometimes.

Anyway, I'm glad these people aren't attracted to our site. The technology is interesting though.

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bernat



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

it's so unfortunate that there are divisions and tension based on age because the interaction of widely varying groups could be so...gestalt? synergistic? essential? yes.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

my experience as a 50 years old enrolled at the Conservatory where the average age of other students is much younger than mine has been very nice and stimulating. Sometimes I wonder how they come up with ideas I would never have (and viceversa, of course).
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
But still, just hearing old men talked of that way was not pleasant.


Sad

it's true that there are just as many dumb teenagers as dumb people of other ages. but anyway, i think i speak for all of project ruori (ages ranging 20-25) in saying that i like you!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mutual, I'm sure... love
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

not to hijack the topic, but it seems that the guys get the brunt of the discriminatory 'isms'

damn kids = teenage punk (boy)s who are out looking for trouble

perverts = crinkley old/ adult men who are yanking it to images of girls/women who are 25 or younger

also, it seems to just go bad all around when an item of clothing starts presenting ideals, especially when said items or styles of clothing are attatched to minorities or groups.

Cases in point; sagging pants and overly large shirts on black people, A-line shirts sometimes called 'wife beaters', and iirc, often worn by men in the summer. (irony, a woman wearing an a-line shirt is called a 'tank top'.)

and perhaps the latest in-thing, any item of clothing that evokes middle eastern moods, from the ubiquitous burqa (often derided as wearing a tent sans poles), the turban or other head-wrap styles, which iirc is perhaps more a feature of northern india men, to womens head-scarves (iirc, perhaps more Persian or Turkish than arabian or muslim), also, scraggly beards on middle eastern men (or maybe just full- bearded men with a rugged tan who obviously arent farmers or bikers) are likely to arise abit of paranoia.

for those of you who feel brave enough to go out and do some shock-awe experimentation (surprise, im not arabic after all, and youre a bigot), it might be a fun intellectual experiment to go and confront people on their programmed beliefs.....
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am and have always been a unique individual with no need to belong to some group, any group. As a result, I've been ostracized etc. by groupers of every stripe. It bugged me when I was young, but since I grew up I see that those who need group identity are aspiring to some kind of normalcy. Yes, I said aspiring, as if they feel that's a step up. Pity.

I am delighted to meet other unique individuals. I have no use for anyone who is a __________ first and a person second, regardless of how you fill the blank.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:53 pm    Post subject: age Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i understood "the generation gap" was shrinking
the same however, could not be said of the gap between wall st types and the rest of us.

leading me to deduce that
age gaps are less important to us today than cultural ones

maybe

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

her attitude toward us was probably affected by the assumption that even if we were her neighbors, she'd never have to deal with us except through our parents. i doubt she even considered the possibility that smokris and i constitute a household in the direct vicinity of hers, and that we've probably waved to each other and if i saw her struggling with her groceries or trash i'd have stopped to help (as i've done with other neighbors recently).

her assumptions and attitudes made me feel totally unwanted in our neighborhood and only strengthened my desire to find a place to live where people don't consider having to talk to each other a big inconvenience. this is the case in so many places; people find any reason to assume that those around them have nothing to give. everyone amounts to no more than an inconvenience until they prove otherwise. and if anything about you stands out, whether it's your pink and purple hair, your facial piercings, your artistic activities, or your dark skin or foreign accent, people focus all their misanthropy right on you for as long as you're in their line of fire.

perhaps that's what makes the electro events so amazingly welcoming -- we've all been told to "turn that &^$& down!!" and so we value each other's music and the process of making it, even when it's not to our tastes.[/quote]

yes! i totally agree. like you said, people think that others around them have nothing to "give" so it IS almost an inconvenience to them. i too am looking for a place where rejoicing in others life is the reason to or to not talk to someone. even as i'm reading this and typing this i'm realizing i'm not all on the bright side of the spectrum, which in turn helps me become more like the people that i/you want to be around.. the people in our electronic community. much love!!

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