electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
go to the radio page Live at electro-music.com radio 1 Please visit the chat
poster
 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » General Discussion
toy instruments / instrument-toys
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 1 of 1 [16 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
bbinkovitz



Joined: Jun 12, 2006
Posts: 338
Location: central ohio
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:04 pm    Post subject: toy instruments / instrument-toys
Subject description: need some advice on making silly pieces of junk into better silly pieces of junk
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

so, i don't know a whole lot about electronics. i completed a physics class once a long time ago. but i can do basic things like identify pos/neg and solder and whatnot.

i want to use silly toy instruments that have crappy built-in speakers and rewire them to output sound to something i can process better.

would it be feasable to, say, wire a toy phone to the cord part of a pair of normal (like walkman) headphones so that i could plug that in my imac's audio input (as if it were a crappy microphone) and start audacity and hit the button on the toy phone to record the sample? or could i do the same thing but not record a sample, but rather play it through in realtime?

but i really want to keep the toys as part of it, not just their sounds. the whole junky toys aesthetic is a big part of it.

anyone done this or similar things? thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
M-.-n



Joined: Oct 30, 2004
Posts: 10
Location: Brussels

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There's a huge community modding silly toys. Most of the time, rip the speaker and solder a jack to the wires, stuff it to the mixing desk and presto.

look out for "circuit bending" and u'll find an overwhelming number of pages related to the subject.

Marc.

_________________
Music
Blog

Building handeld tracker for portable twekness
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4529
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You can also take toys which makes accoustic sounds and use conyact microphones attached to it and feed the sound into the system.

Wout
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
bbinkovitz



Joined: Jun 12, 2006
Posts: 338
Location: central ohio
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
You can also take toys which makes accoustic sounds and use conyact microphones attached to it and feed the sound into the system.

Wout


true, but the problem is that these toys have immensely crappy speakers. i want to hear their marvelous cheesey sounds in full stereo!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
blue hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24075
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
G2 patch files: 320

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbinkovitz wrote:
but the problem is that these toys have immensely crappy speakers


When the interesting aspect of the sound is caused by the speaker itself (which could very well be the case for crappy speakers) you have no choice but to use a microphone to register it. Using a contact microphone here, or a nearby one might give a different perception of the sound, some experimentation will be needed.

It wouldn't be too much work to temporarily connect some shielded wire to the speaker (as was suggested above) to be able to run it into a mixer directly. So you can always try how it works out before making something that could survive a performance situation.

_________________
Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
EdisonRex
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 07, 2007
Posts: 4579
Location: London, UK
Audio files: 172

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mic input is not good. Line input would be better, or if you have a small mixer, put the speaker output into the line input of the mixer and pad it down. Cheesy is one thing, but cheesy overdrive is not so nice.

I like the idea of a mic though. Might impart the audio characteristics of the speaker more.

_________________
Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.


Home,My Studio,and another view
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
blue hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24075
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
G2 patch files: 320

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EdisonRex wrote:
Mic input is not good.


"Not good" is pretty strong wording, but it's a lot more messy for sure Very Happy

_________________
Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
EdisonRex
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 07, 2007
Posts: 4579
Location: London, UK
Audio files: 172

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
EdisonRex wrote:
Mic input is not good.


"Not good" is pretty strong wording, but it's a lot more messy for sure Very Happy


I suppose putting over a volt P-P into a mic input could be construed by some as beauty. It wouldn't, however, be an accurate capture of the tonal quality of a small electronic toy.

_________________
Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.


Home,My Studio,and another view
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
blue hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24075
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
G2 patch files: 320

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EdisonRex wrote:
I suppose putting over a volt P-P into a mic input could be construed by some as beauty. It wouldn't, however, be an accurate capture of the tonal quality of a small electronic toy.


Sorry, I read you wrong. I thought you were against using a microphone to pick up the sound. I wouldn't want to plug the speaker signal into a mic input either.

_________________
Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
EdisonRex
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 07, 2007
Posts: 4579
Location: London, UK
Audio files: 172

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
EdisonRex wrote:
I suppose putting over a volt P-P into a mic input could be construed by some as beauty. It wouldn't, however, be an accurate capture of the tonal quality of a small electronic toy.


Sorry, I read you wrong. I thought you were against using a microphone to pick up the sound. I wouldn't want to plug the speaker signal into a mic input either.


au contraire. I'd rather use a nice mic to pick up such an instrument. Remember, I'm used to micing 10th century instruments and other old stuff. Those don't generally work well with pickups, and being non electronic by a good 1000 years, require some thought about how to accurately capture a tone.

_________________
Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.


Home,My Studio,and another view
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
smokris



Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 97
Location: Athens, Ohio, USA
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:09 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=4917 --- an interview with Brian Duffy of the Modified Toy Orchestra, who talks a little about internal speakers vs. direct output and the troubles of mixing an orchestra of toys.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
EdisonRex
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 07, 2007
Posts: 4579
Location: London, UK
Audio files: 172

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

smokris wrote:
http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=4917 --- an interview with Brian Duffy of the Modified Toy Orchestra, who talks a little about internal speakers vs. direct output and the troubles of mixing an orchestra of toys.


A good clip, although I hate sonicstate, if I don't put my mouse far away from that window, all sorts of "helpful" links keep popping up trying to get me to go somewhere else. It's terribly distracting. Rollover popups should be banned, in my curmudgeonly opinion.

it stands to reason the base waveforms coming out of the chip will be much more harmonically rich than what is being reproduced by a 1" speaker. Again the issue comes down to what do you want to achieve from it, do you want to reproduce the sound of the toy, or do you want to get more harmonic content (release the genie). It's a valid and fair point.

Thomas Henry's 76477 Voice module kind of shows this principle in action, take a 1980s video game chip and make a proper tracking voice module out of it. The sound is rather different than what I remember Galaga sounding like.

Well anyway. Brian Duffy does (admirably) explain the difference between orchestrating for mic input vs full-on electronic input.

Too bad he doesn't go into more about how he actually mixes the toys. I'd love to see a "knob's guide" to mixing circuit bent toys. I suppose you could just do a 50k (or 100k) pot as a voltage divider on the output and use the wiper as the signal to the line input. Practically speaking that's all you really need anyway, just a voltage divider so you aren't dog-farting the line input.

_________________
Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.


Home,My Studio,and another view
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
bbinkovitz



Joined: Jun 12, 2006
Posts: 338
Location: central ohio
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

he's got a pretty lofty view of circuit bending! i like it!

but yeah, in this thread at least what i was meaning to ask about was the "releasing the genie" part of it.

also in making toys into controllers. i don't really know how that would work; something like, i have this toy cell phone called "benign girl" and i want to put all of its sounds onto the computer, circutbend it to come up with some new sounds as well, and then rewire it so it's a controller for sequencing the sounds that had been gotten out of it. or something.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
EdisonRex
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 07, 2007
Posts: 4579
Location: London, UK
Audio files: 172

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmm, turning a phone into a controller of some kind. That's how they make bomb detonators over in these parts, you know. Idea More seriously, though, the vibrate circuit on a phone, being a little motor and weight thing, has a pretty decent current capacity, so if you remove the motor you have a nice ready made trigger generator. I'm sure there are some other points to find. On my phone for example there's a backlight, a "light" function (turns on 3 really bright LEDs for either an arbitrary time, or indefinitely), alarm clock, and there's of course the speaker which one would think could be employed otherwise.

Regarding getting your toy's speaker output attenuated, really all you need is to make a voltage divider out of a potentiometer, put the two ends of a 100k pot in place of the speaker, and use the pot's center(wiper) and the ground point to go to your mixer/computer/whatever's line input. Adjust to taste. If it's too fiddly you might try a bigger potentiometer like 1M, but I think 100k should do if these things only put out like 500mV or 1V or something.

Hope this helps.

_________________
Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.


Home,My Studio,and another view
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
bbinkovitz



Joined: Jun 12, 2006
Posts: 338
Location: central ohio
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EdisonRex wrote:
the vibrate circuit on a phone, being a little motor and weight thing, has a pretty decent current capacity, so if you remove the motor you have a nice ready made trigger generator.


actually it's not really a cell phone. it's a toy that's supposed to look like a cell phone, and it just plays weird noises when you press the buttons.

also what you're suggesting is the opposite of what i want to do. i want to use the "phone" buttons as the user interface.

Quote:

Regarding getting your toy's speaker output attenuated, really all you need is to make a voltage divider out of a potentiometer, put the two ends of a 100k pot in place of the speaker, and use the pot's center(wiper) and the ground point to go to your mixer/computer/whatever's line input. Adjust to taste. If it's too fiddly you might try a bigger potentiometer like 1M, but I think 100k should do if these things only put out like 500mV or 1V or something.


cool. i think i almost understand this, and it seems like what i'm trying to do.

i'll keep you updated. thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
EdisonRex
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 07, 2007
Posts: 4579
Location: London, UK
Audio files: 172

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbinkovitz wrote:


actually it's not really a cell phone. it's a toy that's supposed to look like a cell phone, and it just plays weird noises when you press the buttons.

also what you're suggesting is the opposite of what i want to do. i want to use the "phone" buttons as the user interface.


My bad. I thought it was a real phone. Embarassed

Here's a crudely-drawn graphic of wiring up a voltage divider.


attenuator.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  6.08 KB
 Viewed:  8080 Time(s)

attenuator.jpg



_________________
Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.


Home,My Studio,and another view
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 1 of 1 [16 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » General Discussion
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use