electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Articles  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links  |  Store
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
Live streaming at radio.electro-music.com

  host / artist show at your time
  Antimon Antimon's Half Year Report
Please visit the chat
 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Solina or Onmi ensemble board?
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: Scott Stites
Page 3 of 16 [394 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ..., 14, 15, 16 Next

If I'd make a string chorus PCB, what kind of multi-BBD circuit would you prefer?
Solina style (also: Crumar Performer, Böhm Phasing Rotor, and others)
62%
 62%  [ 28 ]
ARP Omni style
13%
 13%  [ 6 ]
Elka Synthex 4 BBD circuit
11%
 11%  [ 5 ]
other (please name in thread)
6%
 6%  [ 3 ]
I would want neither - it's old fashioned and overused, and if I need it, there are digital FX boxes
6%
 6%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 45

Author Message
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

News on the Solina:

I have made some simulations, which revealed two very interesting details about the original Solina modulation circuit. I will not spill the beans about it yet, but I think the "classic clones" (Crumar, Boehm) probably don't have it. Hmm, the Crumar may have one of them. Smile

Anyway, this is something I won't rely on simulation only, so I've started a huge veroboard to make some experiments. The Dual 3-phase LFO is running already, and I could omit some of the bulkier caps by using modern components.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Master of Circles



Joined: Jun 27, 2007
Posts: 14
Location: Hamburg

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Definately the Solina, as I already have the BBD-parts Smile

Looking forward to it Smile

Greetz,

Master of circles
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Update

jhaible wrote:
Serenadi wrote:

Does that mean, the complete stringphaser requires three boards (each 27$ or so) ?


No, don't worry, certainly not 3 boards.

JH.


I've done a lot of layout work on the weekend, and the bigger part of the Solina board is done.

Good News: As it looks now, it will all fit on one board, so the price for the board will be under EUR 30.00 .

I think I have found a way to fit the 3 BBD lines close together without much interference, by applying very strict EMC design rules: Each Delay Unit (complete with clock oscillator, BBD and near-BBD filtering components) has it's own GND plane, interconnections are very short and all done as Microstrip lines.

Ok, I'll first have to try this on one prototype before I really know if it works, and if it doesn't, I have to throw the concept over and start from point zero, but that's my risk. Smile

Your benefit will be that if it works, it will be ultra-compact, so you can even think about retrofitting existing keyboards with whis. Or put it in a very compact box.
All is relative, of course: We're still talking 160mm x 100mm here, which is big compared to the average stomp box, but small compared to the interior of a Solina keyboard's interior, and even small compared to the Boehm Phasing Rotor 78.

The (hopefully slight) downside of this concept is that I'll probably ditch the Dual-BBD "Roland Chorus" mode. I had intended to use the overhead of two boards (instead of one) to be filled with the extra circuitry for this.
But I think with half tzhe size, and practically half the cost for the PCB, that will be ok, will it?
A dual BBD chorus mode would fit on another of my planned projects better, anyway: Adding a second (entirely optional) BBD to the CE-1 clone .

That's what's going thru my head right now.

I have to see how the remaining board space is eaten up, as I procedd layouting. As I said, the complete extra control circuits for the "Roland" mode won't fit in. But maybe the wonderful String-Sound-dedicated 3-band Equalizer of the Crumar Performer will. (No promise, but likely.)

Ah, and the whole thing might run from 15V single supply, to make building a PSU easier. (YOu can still connect it to a standard +/-15V modular synth supply with the +15V unused - we only need the -15V.

And finally: I have verified the little quirks of the original Solina modulation waveshapes, that make them differ from a simple superposition of slow and fast 3-phase LFO sine waves. These will be reproduced in my version, though by slightly different means, and partly adjustable.
Filters to band limit the signal to 12kHz (Solina) will be included, too. (YOu can bypass this, though.)

All for now. Back to RIMU (my layout tool).

JH.

playing during PCB layout work:
Vangelis, Heaven and Hell
Jeff Johnson, Shadow Play
Jean-Michel Jarre, The Concerts in China

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
mono-poly



Joined: Jul 07, 2004
Posts: 935
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok cool !
Count me in Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Norman Phay



Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 173
Location: North-East England
Audio files: 1

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wonder, Jurgen, if one of these could be easily built into a Lambda string machine in order to replace the (crappy) built-in chorus unit?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Norman Phay wrote:
I wonder, Jurgen, if one of these could be easily built into a Lambda string machine in order to replace the (crappy) built-in chorus unit?


Not sure if it would fit in there, mechanically.
Electronically, it _should_: I think the Lambda runs on +/-15V, but better double check this.

Hmm ... I own two Lambdas as well ... it's a very attractive idea indeed!

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Peake



Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1106
Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Regarding the filtration on the Low output, it would appear to be bandwidth limiting. I'd vote for an output with the filtration, alongside another out at the same amplitude without filtration.

On an instrumental, polyphonic level, the filtration makes great sense. For program or monophonic sounds, unfiltered would be a good option.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:
Regarding the filtration on the Low output, it would appear to be bandwidth limiting. I'd vote for an output with the filtration, alongside another out at the same amplitude without filtration.

On an instrumental, polyphonic level, the filtration makes great sense. For program or monophonic sounds, unfiltered would be a good option.


Hmm, yes. It's pretty dramatic filtering, though.
An old friend has offered a reasonable explanation: this might be for plugging it into an guitar amp, to compesate the mid boost you need for guitar.

It would be interesting to know how original-Solina owners usually play the instrument, high output or low output.

I think of adding that extra filtering, if there is space.
The wonderful 3-Band EQ of the Crumar performer has priority on my board, though.

You'll have 3 settings on my version:
1. Linear
2. Solina (12kHz)
3. Crumar (3-band EQ)

Plus the bypassed signal.

if there's space left, I'll add the "Reverse Guitar Amp Filter" (for lack of a better term)

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Peake



Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1106
Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cool, variety is the best option.

The bandwidth limiting might have been to ease mixing, to simulate the fundamental cancellation which occurs with numerous instruments playing simultaneously. Or something.

People dismiss small sounds, but they're the easiest to mix. The "Low" output filtration would be cake for anyone to include themselves, if they had to have it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bugbrand



Joined: Nov 27, 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Bristol, UK
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Jurgen

I'd be in for a PCB if & when they materialize.

I was chatting with a mate yesterday and he was saying how he'd love a pedal version of the Solina chorus --- I'd not read through this thread before but had noticed it and so putting two&two together.......

Cheers,
Tom

_________________
http://www.bugbrand.co.uk
http://www.bugbrand.blogspot.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's something you will like: Very Happy

http://www.jhaible.heim.at/triple_chorus/triple_chorus.html

But it's still completely untested. Just to give you an idea what it will look like if that design will work.

And some text about the understanding the Solina Chorus - or at least the way I think I understand it.

JH.

Now playing: Pink Floyd, Relics

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
keithwin



Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 83
Location: uk

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't know if I have put myself down for a couple of Solina
PCBs yet but I will have two when they appear please.

regards Keith
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bugbrand



Joined: Nov 27, 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Bristol, UK
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
Here's something you will like: :D

http://www.jhaible.heim.at/triple_chorus/triple_chorus.html

But it's still completely untested. Just to give you an idea what it will look like if that design will work.

And some text about the understanding the Solina Chorus - or at least the way I think I understand it.

JH.

Now playing: Pink Floyd, Relics


Yes! I do indeed like!
Very nice work - I'll point my mate towards it and he'll be darn excited.

_________________
http://www.bugbrand.co.uk
http://www.bugbrand.blogspot.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
blue potato



Joined: Sep 09, 2007
Posts: 2
Location: bristol uk

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

solina definitely ! i have a string ensemble but i'd love to be able to get the chorus with controls in a separate box

also the roland re501 chorus echo has a simple but lush chorus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Peake



Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1106
Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Exciting stuff. I believe that I see a mix output and individual chorus taps as well. And connections for the three EQ points you'd mentioned? Sweet.

One question... No variable control for the two LFO rates? Would they sound odd at different frequencies due to the waveshaping you'd mentioned? Thanks for any response.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:
Exciting stuff. I believe that I see a mix output and individual chorus taps as well. And connections for the three EQ points you'd mentioned? Sweet.


Yes. I decided to make th emain signal path mono, but to provide individual outputs, so everyone can mix his or her own stereo version, if needed.

Quote:
One question... No variable control for the two LFO rates? Would they sound odd at different frequencies due to the waveshaping you'd mentioned? Thanks for any response.


Just like the original. You can adjust both LFOs, but the more you deviate from the intented setting, the more your 3-phase balance will be off. Which may or may not sound interesting.

I made this decision to be as close to the original as possible, sacrificing some flexibility. For general multi-delay line experiments, there's plenty of stuff around, from BBD modules to digital FX boxes to virtual modulars.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Peake



Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1106
Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh- The two LFO rates are an integral aspect of the resulting phase distribution? Not being able to surmise behaviour from schematics (or much else), I'd taken the post-LFO phase network to have been the important part.

Thanks. I'll be asking after a pair of boards when the time comes. Good work!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Update

I feel like being among the living again. Very Happy
Thank God, the virus has only hit my equilibrium system, and not my inner ear, as it did on a colleague at work.

I'll be back to work on monday, and I'll slowly pick up my PCB projects, too.

During my illness, the prototype PCBs for the Compact Clone, the Solina ensemble, and the Frequency Shifter, all arrived, one by one, from Olimex.
My wife even brought one to the hospital, to cheer me up a little.
It was about the last thing I was interested in, then, though, but I love her for doing this.

Now I'm even looking forward to go back to work - I can't just sit and do nothing for more than a couple of weeks, work-a-holic that I am.
And I'm looking forward to build and to test these PCBs.
I don't know the exact order in which these 3 projects will be available, but I think they will come in rapid succession. The Solina will probably be the first, because it relies on the availability of the TDA 1022 chips.

So, if you're interested in Solina Ensemble emulator boards, it's a good time to buy your TDA1022's now, if you haven't already.
You need 3 of these chips for one Ensemble board.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
bugbrand



Joined: Nov 27, 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Bristol, UK
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice work Jurgen and glad you're bouncing back. I've got to have a hospital operation at the start of Nov. which is going to keep me from working pretty much all month - luckily I get to convalesce at home, but it'll be hard to stop from doing all the day-to-day things. Its hard to put down work when it is busy and fun..


***
TDA1022s
- they've got them at SmallBear at $6.50 each
I haven't seen any other sources as yet.. None on Ebay..

_________________
http://www.bugbrand.co.uk
http://www.bugbrand.blogspot.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bugbrand wrote:
I've got to have a hospital operation at the start of Nov.


I wish you all the best for this!

Quote:

TDA1022s
- they've got them at SmallBear at $6.50 each


I think that's a good price.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
b-funk



Joined: Jul 17, 2007
Posts: 186
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

you can get the tda1022 also at vintageplanet.nl, but they are much more expensive there...

best wishes,

tobias.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

b-funk wrote:
you can get the tda1022 also at vintageplanet.nl, but they are much more expensive there...

best wishes,

tobias.


6.95 (Euros I suppose) isn't that expensive, either, IMO.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
goodrevdoc



Joined: Sep 11, 2006
Posts: 288
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Audio files: 1

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just happen to have three TDA1022's. So put me down for one.
-justin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Spratty



Joined: Oct 08, 2007
Posts: 43
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd be interested in one too Smile

What a marvelous project Smile

Spratty Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
keithwin



Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 83
Location: uk

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good to hear your well Jurgen,

grandata appear to have TDA's in the UK - not tried them yet, just about to.


http://www.grandata.co.uk/acatalog/Grandata__TDA_745.html#a18601
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: Scott Stites
Page 3 of 16 [394 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ..., 14, 15, 16 Next
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
e-m mkii

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from
our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use