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non-linear
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norm



Joined: Mar 11, 2004
Posts: 18
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:36 pm    Post subject: non-linear Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello everyone,
I'm new here. I'm a asian guy who interested in Electronic Music. I'm such a newbie in these music style.
ok, before I ask you I just want to let you know that my English is not well cause it not my first language. so please try to understand. here is my question.

I trying to figure out about non linear music, non linear sequencer,... I know it kind of everything is not continue and it depend on performer choose the pattern, right?

well, I still not sure how I can create a song with this idae? I want to know your idea ae well...What is your philosophy? what is your tool you use for? How you manage everythin for your performance? do you have any picture of your Live Set?

I haven't done these kind of music before. I usually use linear sequencer to make my song but I getting interested in Electronic Music. I'm so wondering when I listen to the bands like Autechre, Mouse on Mars, Plaid, Mum, Matmos,...all these band make me excited and curiouse in the same time...I really want to know how can they do performance. What is the stuff thier use for.

It sound very complicate for me. I try to use Reason it sound pretty good but I still have a problem about creating the structure of my song. because I always think in linear way it hard for me to imagine about performance pattern and making a compleat song in the same time.

and one more question. I heard about Sequencer of nord G2 is non-linear as well, right? I 'm very interesting in these Synth. but I'm afried about Modular stuff, is it gonna be hard for me? (actually I really want to use it...I have my MS20 and I love it so much...ths Synth make me want to study more about Modular synth.) by the way can you educate me about the sequencer in G2 please

thank you very much and please educate me Very Happy
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seraph
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi norm
welcome
I think that when you talk about "non linear music, non linear sequencer" you mean groove/pattern oriented music where a song is assembled stringing together small sections (usually called grooves or patterns).
Am I right Question If so, Reason could be an excellent tool for this kind of approach to composition. Very Happy welcome

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The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils; the motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Erebus: Let no such man be trusted. - W. Shakespeare
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aquanaut



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Norm

What is a non linear sequencer?
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Autechre and MAtmos? I think I read somethimng in Sound On Sound recently.. some interviews I guess.

I am not completely sure I understand what you mean by nonlinear seqences.. but can this be the weird patterns and the almost arythmic drum patterns etc? kinda like some of the IDM music?

Some of these noises and rythms are pretty elaborate.. and some are completely studio work.. as in dissecting and shaping sounds with Peak, Spark or some other audio editor on the PC or mac.

Some of these sounds can be programmed using gear like the Clavia Nord Modular or Reaktor. I think I saw mentioned here somewjhere examples of accelerating echoes etc.
Truth is.. performing such music will often rely on playback.. and the oerfomances will often mean rearrangeing excisting loops and noises using applications like Ableton live.

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norm



Joined: Mar 11, 2004
Posts: 18
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thank you very much for your welcome and every suggestion Very Happy

I guess non-linear sequencer it might be MAX/Msp, Reaktor, symbolic composer, Ableton Live, and other hardware like elctribe-esx, machinedrum, nord G2...
http://www.synthesizers.de/esynth/sequencer.html

the opposite of things like cubase and logic, very linear. no interaction.

I still want to know about sequencer in G2 more please educate me.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Aha... interactive..!

Listen.. way back with analog sequencers.. lile thw ones in the Roland System 700 and 100 series and the Moogs.. you would often set up pretty immense patches in order to have it playable.. as in interactive. Custom modules with voltage comparators etc could also be used in order to add a certain degree of surprise or random feel.
Some of my old songs like "The Man Who Japed" is partly written for such patches and gear. Of course.. it can be sequenced completely using modern sequencers like Cubase.. but I think that the old way of working kinda influenced how it turned out.

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aquanaut



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think i understand. Blame it on boards of canada. Norm are you talking about the gridline in cubase and the music it makes vs the music you make with the layering of small bites of beats that are allready groovy?
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play



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

for this type of thing i think you already know what you want: max/msp reaktor, plogue bidule, that sort of thing. you can build sequencers with these programs but it's very conducive to knob twiddling. i like to just set up some machines in reaktor and jam my evolution16, maybe use the computer keyboard for midi events here and there. Reaktor is my choice for rapid development. you can build interesting and fun instruments pretty quickly once you get the basics of the program down.
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paul e.



Joined: Sep 22, 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i thinkhe means loop /patterns like seraph suggested. -
interacting with some knobs to mute and send control changes...

i agree with seraph, reason would do the trick

cubase is very linear in the sense you have to arrange over a timeline

with reason you can set a 1 or 4 bar loop and just jam..well you can do this with cubase but it is more of a pain and not really it's thing

oh yeah and there is LIve too..

but does Live have synths ?

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seraph
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

paul aka sudden wrote:
does Live have synths ?

no, but if you "rewire" Ableton Live with Propellerhead Reason you get an explosive mix of virtual synths and audio recordings. Awesome Exclamation

Quote:
What is ReWire?
ReWire is a system for transferring audio data between two computer applications, in real time. Basically, you could view ReWire as an "invisible cable" that streams audio from one computer program into another.

ReWire was developed by Propellerhead Software AB in 1998 and first appeared in Propellerheads' ReBirth RB-338 and Steinberg Soft- & Hardware's Cubase VST, allowing the two programs to communicate in a way that hadn't been possible before. Since then, a version 2 of ReWire has been released, with several significant improvements and additions. Today, a number of software applications from different manufacturers support ReWire.

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The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils; the motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Erebus: Let no such man be trusted. - W. Shakespeare
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egw
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The sequencers in the Nord G2 operate much the same as the old analog sequencers. If you have an MS-20, you might be familiar with the SQ-10. Go to Clavia's site and download a copy of the editor. You can see the modules and get an idea of how they work, but of course you can't hear anything without the synth.
It's modular so you have a lot of flexibility to program the sequencers to work any way you want. But they are still step sequencers, that is they trigger a series of events, they do not record and play back audio. It's up to you to create the musical consequences of each event.
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aquanaut



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hard Normal Daddy from squarepusher. Track one. It's not a question of style. That song was made with "a DR660 and a S950" as i read in an interview. is he alternating with a triplet feel?
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aquanaut



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

at 2:58 the crowd cheer
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jkn



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Squarepusher seems able to take a drum machine and make it do tricks few others can do... simply amazing.

I'm agreeing with a few others, Norm... Max/msp or Reaktor are probably up your alley. Autechre did a lot of their early stuff with some Alesis sequencers (I think ... don't quote me ) - but the earlier stuff is a bit "straighter" than anything after around Envane or so. Check this earlier thread for a link to an Autechre interview:

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/topic-1629.html&highlight=autechre

Also, I know some artists do the more messed up Autechre/BOC sort of thing with trackers such as Buzz. I've never used a tracker, but I've heard plenty of quirky IDM from artists that have done that sort of sound.

All in all - you can achieve whatever sound you're wanting with almost any equipment. Some might be "easier" to achieve certain sounds - but it's entirely possible with just about anything. I love to get glitchy microsound type sounds out of my 80's era synths - that typically sound more like something out of a laptop running reaktor or max... It's mainly just becuase I don't own those programs and I like the sound (at least for certain cases...) Anyway -

Welcome to the forum! It's a worldwide forum - you're not the only one with English as a 2nd (or 3rd...) language. Bear with us if we don't get something right away and I'm sure everyone will bear with you if you have difficulty saying something. Smile
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play



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

note on Buzz:

i use it frequently and it's true you can make some really wacky stuff with trackers, particuarly this one. But it's all calculated for the most part. Trackers are about as linear as you can get =)
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aquanaut



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"On Confield we also used analogue sequencers and drum machines, because you can do a lot with restarting patterns. You can hack things and maybe use a control volume to determine what step the drum machine is playing from. Perhaps you send that control volume from an analogue sequencer, so the drum machine is skipping around. And then you get another analogue sequencer to drive that analogue sequencer with a different timing. Immediately you have something that some people would call random, but I would say is quantifiable"


i'm not sure i understand this. What is a control volume?
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mosc
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I like analog sequencers to be interactive and playable in realtime. The reset button is esential. The G2 is nice because you can store 7 variations. These remember every setting in the patch, including: clock rate, trigger/gate patterns, and all the slider patten. Jumping between variations is quite a usefull playing technique. Also, of course you have the 8 assignable front panel knobs, and the keyboard to play. It makes for a great sequencer, box.

One thing I liked about the original Moog sequencers was the "jump" momentary on push button on every stage. What it does is give you not just one reset button, but as many as you have stages. This is something missing on most sequencers.

Another key feature is the forward/reverse input. The is actually implimentable on the G2, with some difficulty. Makes for great patterns that meander.

I still don't understand the term non-linear in this duscussion, but it's a good one anyway.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

niko_91 wrote:

i'm not sure i understand this. What is a control volume?


well if you are talking digital then it's just some kind of variable control signal. if you were using an analog synth it would be a controllable voltage with a specific range. Using something like reaktor you can use an LFO or some other controllable signal to drive a sequencer which is similar to what I think they are talking about. For instance, let's say the LFO is swinging between 0 and 20. You take the current value of the LFO and truncate it so it's an integer between 0 and 20 and plug it into the part of the sequencer that determines what step to play. You can then alter the frequency and amplitude of the LFO thus changing the sequence. If you did this with a random signal generator or changed the value by hand you'd have random-ish playback of your sequence.

I particualrly like the "sample position" samplers in reaktor that allow you to control playback of a sample in the milliseconds range. Usually you just hook up a ramp-type wav whose period is the same length as the sample. this will give you vanilla playback. However, reaktor has all kinds of fun stuff like event tables which allow you to draw the waveform that's controlling playback of the sample in realtime and also adjust the rate at which the waveform is read. You can even use audio sources to control playback of other samples. Or create a feedback loop where the sample that's playing is generating the control data for the sequencer that's telling it to play. just slightly changing the playback volume would radically alter the sequence or try adding delay or filtering or adding noise to the signal, etc.

so..um..yeah, the sky's the limit.
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aquanaut



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Control volume

in cubase you can change, with the input transform, note on into CC. so your main sequence( in cubase) gets resequenced (analog synth)

Or maybe it's similar to when you feed the audio of synth a into synth b and trigger the eg of synth b with something else.
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