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deknow



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

if i'm allowed to oversimplify for a minute...if history is any measure, i think the communist _and_ the facist would kill the jew (or at least "severly persecute") before turning on each other.

deknow
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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
if i'm allowed to oversimplify for a minute...if history is any measure, i think the communist _and_ the facist would kill the jew (or at least "severly persecute") before turning on each other.

deknow


Then, perhaps you didn't get the joke.

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klangumsetzer



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hello,

readings this post i was reminded about what i thought when my son was born 16 months ago: How can anyone who witnessed the birth of a child kill someone?


best wishes

eike
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mosc
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

noodulator wrote:
How can anyone who witnessed the birth of a child kill someone?


I bet if there was research we might find that there is a lot to this. Men in many cultures are kept away from the birth of children and their care. Maybe it is a big part in the desensitization of men to violence.

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bachus



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
noodulator wrote:
How can anyone who witnessed the birth of a child kill someone?


I bet if there was research we might find that there is a lot to this. Men in many cultures are kept away from the birth of children and their care. Maybe it is a big part in the desensitization of men to violence.


I think there is merit to your suggestion but perhaps not for the reasons you think. I know that our egos constantly whisper in our minds ear that consciousness raised up on high by free will is what guides, us but to a great extent that is a crock:

http://www.attachmentparenting.org/artchemistry.shtml

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/543

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bachus



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I should make clear that in my own mind the fact that certain chemicals absorbed at certain times in certain contexts transforms our natures is as close to a spiritual/mystical revelation as I can experience. That these chemicals, these particular weavings of physical dimension and forms distilled through eons of evolution and constant in meaning over a wide brotherhood of life can transform our feelings in ways that nourish love, moves me profoundly and gives me emotional rooting in the natural world and sanctifies my love and reverence for it. What I curse is our mind's ego that would divorce us from the ecstasy of that truth.

But then I guess I am little odd.

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Oskar



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:

But then I guess I am little odd.


But in a good way, my friend!

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klangumsetzer



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
I should make clear that in my own mind the fact that certain chemicals absorbed at certain times in certain contexts transforms our natures is as close to a spiritual/mystical revelation as I can experience. (...)

bachus, thanks for clarifying.
in my opinion mystical experiences are not arational, rather super-rational. if mysticism is an integrating experience of 'the one', it must encompass chemistry i.e. science also.
working as an r&d chemist i often cannot stop wondering about the ways of nature... and how it is all interconnected.


best regards

eike
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bachus



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh good, now I can go back to pointing out the dark dystopian side of this same coin.
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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
I should make clear that in my own mind the fact that certain chemicals absorbed at certain times in certain contexts transforms our natures is as close to a spiritual/mystical revelation as I can experience. That these chemicals, these particular weavings of physical dimension and forms distilled through eons of evolution and constant in meaning over a wide brotherhood of life can transform our feelings in ways that nourish love, moves me profoundly and gives me emotional rooting in the natural world and sanctifies my love and reverence for it. What I curse is our mind's ego that would divorce us from the ecstasy of that truth.

My favorite character from Zen folklore is Layman P'ang, who lived in 6th century China with his wife and two kids. I guess I like him in part because he is a layman, basically working it out without the support of the monastic societal infrastructure of the time. "Outside of Society" as Patti Smith might sing. His family has lots of good stories.
Quote:

One day Shih-T'ou said to the Layman: "Since seeing me, what have your daily activities been?"
"When you ask me about my daily activities, I can't open my mouth," the Layman replied.
"Just becuase I know you are thus I now ask you," said Shih-T'ou.
Whereupon the Layman offered this verse:

My daily activities are not unusual,
I am just naturally in harmony with them.
Grasping nothing, discarding nothing,
In every place there is no hindrance, no conflict.
Who assigns the ranks of vermillion and purple?
The hills' and mountains' last speck of dust
is extinguished.
My supernatural power and marvelous activity --
Drawing water and carrying firewood.

All conflict arises from internal conflict.

Think of each of us as an atom. One can be a stable yet interactive atom like carbon, or stable and less interactive like helium, or unstable like a uranium isotope. If I get into an argument with my wife, there is typically some internal conflict about work or something else that has nothing to do with her. The first move is to get the couple of cubic feet around me in order. On a typical day, not hard. Nothing special.

After that, fundamentally, it's all statistics, which in the case of people == cultures. Statistics being a good, stable atom linked with other good, stable atoms can lead to powerful emergent structures. Cultivating internal conflict leads to unstable isotopes and therefore unstable structures.

So, this may seem simplistic and ineffective, even a cop-out, but fundamentally, it's all there is. The carbon atom at the center of a DNA molecule is nothing special. It is just drawing water and carrying wood. Anyone who has been in a "peace movement" or any well intentioned intentional organization effort, knows that internal and external hurdles arise, and that people burn out and turn allies into enemies. Internal conflicts. I saw a clip of David Crosby and Graham Nash at a "peace rally" the other night, and Crosby was saying that he wishes that the government would bring back the draft so that the youth would become active again. Cynical Old Man. He'd better watch out; Hunter Thompson was dead shortly after mouthing similar sentiments, by his own hand. Internal conflicts, unstable atoms.

This is not to say one must stay in one's few cubic feet and keep one's mouth shut. But for intensions to amplify into constructive actions, carbon and hydrogen and nitrogen and oxygen atoms must link organically.

That is why I said in a recent post that, at the absolute worst, the planet will perceive us as a temporary headache. This is not a negative thought. We are like a big baby on the surface of this planet, sometimes good and sometimes fussy, and if we become smart enough not to shit all over what we eat, we may be able to grow up. Like I am always telling our beagle during our walks: "Don't eat the shit."

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bachus



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Acoustic Interloper wrote:
That is why I said in a recent post that, at the absolute worst, the planet will perceive us as a temporary headache. This is not a negative thought. We are like a big baby on the surface of this planet, sometimes good and sometimes fussy, and if we become smart enough not to shit all over what we eat, we may be able to grow up. Like I am always telling our beagle during our walks: "Don't eat the shit."


I still don't get this part, how is it different from saying the planet will perceive life as a temporary headache?

In truth I am less concerned with humanities fate than the fate we seem about to inflict on so many other species here. Personally I'd rather loose us than so many of them. We may be special, but I don't think we're that special, regardless of what our ego's whisper in our ears.

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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
I still don't get this part, how is it different from saying the planet will perceive life as a temporary headache?

In truth I am less concerned with humanities fate than the fate we seem about to inflict on so many other species here. Personally I'd rather loose us than so many of them. We may be special, but I don't think we're that special, regardless of what our ego's whisper in our ears.

The dichotomous illusion is that we are somehow separate or distinct from the planet. We are the planet. We are part of what the planet is doing right now. If we lead to mass extinctions, or in fact are in the midst of one, the planet has done them before. We are a manifestation of this planet's unfolding, just like dinosaurs and continental drift.

This is not to make excuses not to try to act compassionately. We have some measure of awareness of this situation. We can haul water, and carry wood, and not shit where we or other creatures eat, and clean up the shit as we find it. Internal conflict is shitting where we eat.

I remember reading Aldous Huxley's thoughts about the Bhagavad Gita, mostly about passion and detachment. Act passionately, as though every act matters, because it does, and do not cling to results. Takes practice, lots of practice, like making music!

Have a Good Night!

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deknow



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...as a tree fruits, the earth peoples
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