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 Forum index » Discussion » Diversity in electro-music
Anything but sexist/feminist topics
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jksuperstar wrote:
... Masturbation is a well practiced form of sex in the world. ...
In the western world it is. In other cultures sex isn't that important, or is just a fact of life. People are less frustrated by it, anyway. I don't say this is the case in every culture wich isn't the western one, but there are different possibilities. Don't go mistaken all cultures are the same or want to be the same...

I wonder if the discussion about women in music is as hard as here Smile Is it typical a problem in western culture the gender and sexuality have to be an item in a discussion when art is the subject? Why is every male ballet dancer always a 'suspect' of being gay or at least a transsexual who is afraid of the operation Wink

Still nobody has found any real argument about the question 'why are there so few women active in electronic music?'...

Wout
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laura woodswalker



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

[quote="Wout Blommers"]
jksuperstar wrote:


Still nobody has found any real argument about the question 'why are there so few women active in electronic music?'...

Wout


I think we already went thru this. I'd say the main reason is the fear of things that are "nerdy & technical."

And why so few women in Rock? Because of the fear of things that are "too Macho & testosterone-ly."

Anyway this is one woman's perspective. One woman who does like both Rock and Electro (trance/ambient).

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

laura woodswalker wrote:
... I'd say the main reason is the fear of things that are "nerdy & technical." ... Because of the fear of things that are "too Macho & testosterone-ly." ...
Shocked So you are saying it's purely a psychologic reason? It sounds to me like an ego-centric statement: I want to participate, but it has to meet my standards first...
I can't believe this...

Wout
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laura woodswalker



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
laura woodswalker wrote:
... I'd say the main reason is the fear of things that are "nerdy & technical." ... Because of the fear of things that are "too Macho & testosterone-ly." ...
Shocked So you are saying it's purely a psychologic reason? It sounds to me like an ego-centric statement: I want to participate, but it has to meet my standards first...
I can't believe this...

Wout


"egocentric"? What do you mean?

What's egocentric about "fear" that you don't belong or won't measure up?

Well I suppose everything is "egocentric" in that sense. It is always about "us" and our image of ourselves and what we think we can do.

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lets assume the reasons you mention are right and women want to make electronic music, then 'fear', also a psychologic topic, for the behavior of others will stop their efforts to reach their goal? That's no reason; that's an excuse...
Quote:
Well I suppose everything is "egocentric" in that sense. It is always about "us" and our image of ourselves and what we think we can do.
Well, a lot of 'us', 'we' and 'ourselves' in that sentence Smile

I just want to say: women in electronic music, the world wants to hear you!

Wout
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dewdrop_world



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wouldn't want to overlook the role of socialization either. Parents subtly influence their children's outlook, before they can even speak, by choices of clothing, toys, the encouragement or discouragement they give one hobby over another.

If boys prefer building blocks and toy cars and girls prefer dolls and E-Z-Bake ovens, how much of that is really their free choice? How much of it is due to the parents' subtle reinforcement of social and cultural norms of gender-appropriate behavior?

It's so hard for parents to overcome this too... my brother and his wife are pretty socially enlightened, but when their baby girl popped out a few years ago, it took no time at all for the pink clothes to show up. If they couldn't even avoid gender-stereotyped baby clothes, what other cultural baggage could they not avoid?

James

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So the conclusion could be: sorry, ladies, you can't help yourself? You're educated only to be a good house wife... Your parents made you afraid to all things boys can do? It's too deterministic and pessimistic in my opinion. And again it sounds too much as an excuse to me. I'm not making electronic music because I'm a boy; just because I want to, sometimes Smile

My wife knows how to repair the engine of our car. She knows what to ask for in the garage. She knows how to handle the car-repairman. And believe me, everybody is aware she's a woman Very Happy Alright, I'm a much better cook then she is...

She's not interested in making electronic music, but if she was, she knows how to get the information she needs. She will not think: "Never mind, I'm just a girl".

Wout
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:

I just want to say: women in electronic music, the world wants to hear you!


Question

Shouldn't that be "hear from you"? What you are currently implying Wout, is that no one can hear any women. Shocked

I imagine that most women have more sense and that casually chatting about 'much ado about nothing' about electronic music on internet sites such as electro-music.com is a waste of time when most of them are too busy getting down to it by putting the actual music out! Idea Laughing

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IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:


She's not interested in making electronic music, but if she was, she knows how to get the information she needs. She will not think: "Never mind, I'm just a girl".


Shocked

Wout, What on earth are you rambling on about??! Laughing Laughing Laughing

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IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
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laura woodswalker



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Wout Blommers wrote:

I just want to say: women in electronic music, the world wants to hear you!


Question

Shouldn't that be "hear from you"? What you are currently implying Wout, is that no one can hear any women. Shocked

I imagine that most women have more sense and that casually chatting about 'much ado about nothing' about electronic music on internet sites such as electro-music.com is a waste of time when most of them are too busy getting down to it by putting the actual music out! Idea Laughing


Hahah.... interesting set of posts!
As to conditioning of children... I was raised in the 50s and there definitely was no real expectation that I would be good in science, etc. Just that I would marry a nice guy. Not really oppressive, but just a cultural norm of the 50's I guess.

When I raised my kids I was careful not to stereotype them with certain color clothes or certain toys... matter of fact all of us loved our Legos more than all the other toys put together. That's me, the Mom plus the kids.

However, the surrounding culture is another matter, and my daughter is mostly tech-illiterate while my 2 boys are engineers.

I can't explain it but there is just a lot of cultural modeling going on below the conscious level. Based on what their peers, relatives etc. are doing.

I was a little less influenced by peers growing up... because I was the school outcast/weirdo with hardly any friends. So if I played guitar, wrote novels or whatever...what difference did it make?

To the guy who wants to hear women in electro... THANKS. Laughing I'm teaching myself basic piano riffs/chops and I hope to be able to play some great music by next year. I'll post some soundclips when i feel they're good enough.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I still feel that everyone has *some* inherent desire for certain things. My niece for instance, with no other children in her existence, suddenly began cuddling her baby dolls and put them in things to rock them to sleep. She did not have a rocker of her own. Ever. She did this at about 9 months.

What I'm saying, is that *I* think there is equal opportunity in all of us to do things. However, I don't think it's simply social limitations that restrict *most* women to the kitchen and *most* men to day jobs and similar roles. I feel, as a population, we gravitated to these roles as parts of who we inherently are. Again, everyone's choices should be open to everything, not just women to traditional man roles, but the opposite as well. But I don't believe at all in being evangelical about stressing someone into a certain field because there seems to be a "shortage" of a certain gender or race in a given role.
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Wout Blommers wrote:

I just want to say: women in electronic music, the world wants to hear you!


Question

Shouldn't that be "hear from you"? What you are currently implying Wout, is that no one can hear any women. Shocked
You know I'm not a native speaker Smile Thanks for the correction.

Wout
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jksuperstar wrote:
I still feel that everyone has *some* inherent desire for certain things. My niece for instance, with no other children in her existence, suddenly began cuddling her baby dolls and put them in things to rock them to sleep. She did not have a rocker of her own. Ever. She did this at about 9 months.

What I'm saying, is that *I* think there is equal opportunity in all of us to do things. However, I don't think it's simply social limitations that restrict *most* women to the kitchen and *most* men to day jobs and similar roles. I feel, as a population, we gravitated to these roles as parts of who we inherently are. Again, everyone's choices should be open to everything, not just women to traditional man roles, but the opposite as well. But I don't believe at all in being evangelical about stressing someone into a certain field because there seems to be a "shortage" of a certain gender or race in a given role.
In the sixties of the last century these discussion was held a lot in The Netherlands. The only conclusion I ever come up with is: art is always very difficult to produce in a social context. But is social acceptation that important to the artist?

Wout
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers

How about you, Papuna, can I encourage you to not be the kind of person who would laugh at Gay people or their children?

I do not lought at tham, cause in my country gays not may be marred, well I woud not lought at tham anyway but, when people are loughting, I said that, just gays must not have children till there is riks that there children will be discriminated Neutral
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Papuna wrote:
Wout Blommers

How about you, Papuna, can I encourage you to not be the kind of person who would laugh at Gay people or their children?
...
I think you're quoting laura woodswalker and not me.

Wout
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:
I wouldn't want to overlook the role of socialization either. Parents subtly influence their children's outlook, before they can even speak, by choices of clothing, toys, the encouragement or discouragement they give one hobby over another.

If boys prefer building blocks and toy cars and girls prefer dolls and E-Z-Bake ovens, how much of that is really their free choice? How much of it is due to the parents' subtle reinforcement of social and cultural norms of gender-appropriate behavior?

It's so hard for parents to overcome this too... my brother and his wife are pretty socially enlightened, but when their baby girl popped out a few years ago, it took no time at all for the pink clothes to show up. If they couldn't even avoid gender-stereotyped baby clothes, what other cultural baggage could they not avoid?


Yes, those are good questions and quite topical when we are talking about the relative lack of women on this site. It goes MUCH further then just the parents.

The son of a friend of mine went through a "wild animals" phase; making clawing gestures, growling, etc. Imagine his delight at finding out that he could get pants with animal skin patterns!

This went very well untill the (female) kindergarten teachers determined that those pants were too "feminine" for a boy, took them off and put him in different pants and complained to my friend and his partner. Fortunately they responded by immediately switching schools for their son.

I wonder a lot about this stuff, not just how it affects gender-identity but also sexual-identity and frankly a lot more places where a preference or choice in any matter also affects how ons's seen socially.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
The only conclusion I ever come up with is: art is always very difficult to produce in a social context. But is social acceptation that important to the artist?

Wout


Sure, but wouldn't it be yet harder to produce art without a social context?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Yes, those are good questions and quite topical when we are talking about the relative lack of women on this site. It goes MUCH further then just the parents....


I also recall reading studies of classroom interactions that showed teachers, totally unconsciously, favoring boys in math classes over girls. Boys got called on more often and got better praise for right answers. I don't have a citation for that one handy.

This is a different citation with other interesting nuggets. It suggests perhaps if the other study focused on classrooms with male teachers, then the gender of the teacher could explain the bias toward male students.

http://www.hoover.org/publications/ednext/3853842.html

Quote:
Furthermore, when taught by a man, girls were more likely to report that they did not look forward to a subject, that it was not useful for their future, or that they were afraid to ask questions. This dynamic is strongest in science, where student reports indicate that female science teachers are far more effective in promoting girls’ engagement with this field of study. The estimated effects in the other two subjects pointed in the same direction but were statistically insignificant when examined separately.

Boys also had fewer positive reactions to their academic subject when taught by an opposite-gender teacher. In particular, when taught by a female teacher, boys were significantly more likely to report that they did not look forward to the subject. This effect appears to have been particularly pronounced when the female teacher was in history. The patterns for boys in other subjects are quite consistent with those observed in history, though I should again be cautious in drawing strong conclusions because many of the results fall short of conventional levels of statistical significance.


Quote:
But I was concerned about the likelihood that women teachers are assigned the less-promising math students. Administrators may think that women are better equipped to handle more difficult students or that men are better able to challenge the bright ones. If so, then it could appear that students benefit less from women teachers simply because they are given the lower-achieving ones in the first place.... If a student with a female math teacher also scores poorly in science, that would be a sign of a lower-performing student overall, not evidence that the gender of the teacher in the math class is having a negative impact.... And that is precisely what I found.


James

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In contrast; I'm not sure what it's like at other universities but back when I was at the technical university of Delft there would be about 7 or 8 math students per year...... and you'd be lucky if more then one of those was a guy.

(everything else was male-dominated though and all of it depended to some degree on math)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:
I also recall reading studies of classroom interactions that showed teachers, totally unconsciously, favoring boys in math classes over girls. Boys got called on more often and got better praise for right answers. I don't have a citation for that one handy.

James


In Sweden, awareness of this problem has made the pendulum swing to the other side, so that boys are now less likely to get good grades in school than girls. Overall, girls get higher grades than boys here.

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I noticed something quite odd yesterday. On a whim and for the first time in a year or so I watched the national (as in by the state-funded channels) news on TV. There was a item there about a pyromaniac who was setting fires to garden-sheds in a small village and how hard to catch *this man* was.

Maybe I'm strange but I find this offensively sexist for what's supposed to be a quality and neutral news-source. Until somebody is caught and we know his/her sex it's a "person" and not a "man". I don't care if female pyromaniacs are unheard-off so far in documented history; this might be one. We might as well say "This jew hasn't been caught yet" or "This unusually dexterous parrot hasn't been caught yet".

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Papuna wrote:
I do not lought at tham, cause in my country gays not may be marred, well I woud not lought at tham anyway but, when people are loughting, I said that, just gays must not have children till there is riks that there children will be discriminated Neutral


...this same logic would mean that (in many times and places), blacks, jews, muslims, catholics, athiests, etc should not have children because the children would be discriminated against....but there is much to be said for "fighting the good fight", and working towards acceptance from others rather than eliminating the minorities from the population (either by voluntary non-reproduction, or by hitler syle eugenics). in a culture where women are discriminated against, should one avoid having (or keeping) female children?

you may not be in a position where you can even have the oppurtunity to know well adjusted, successful gay people...never mind gay parents...but i would encourage you (if possible) to travel to places where this is possible. when you see that absent of a strong anti gay (and anti children of gay) cultural bias that gay parents are every bit as good at parenting as straight parents, and that the children are well adjusted and accepted....you will see that the problem is not with gays, but with those judging/not accepting/discriminating against gays. certainly here in the u.s. pre 1960's there was a lot of very open discrimination (to the point of lynching) against blacks....do we blame this on the blacks who were simply living their lives, or on those that chose to attack them?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:
dewdrop_world wrote:
I also recall reading studies of classroom interactions that showed teachers, totally unconsciously, favoring boys in math classes over girls. Boys got called on more often and got better praise for right answers. I don't have a citation for that one handy.

James


In Sweden, awareness of this problem has made the pendulum swing to the other side, so that boys are now less likely to get good grades in school than girls. Overall, girls get higher grades than boys here.

/Stefan


Girls get higher grades than boys in the United States, as well, and are more likely to get into college.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good topic. It's sad but feminism and sexism is probably here to stay for a while. It's like saying is it possible to talk about men hairstylists without involving homosexuality.
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