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Analog XOR
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
The xor on the outputs of the comparators will give the windowing function like you described it ... I hope the following table will prove that Very Happy

thumleft Now I got it. Thanks!

Very Happy

Ian
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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
EdisonRex wrote:
...I used square waves, although you can use others, it still ends up somewhat pulsed sounding, being a comparitor-ish thing. I tried to play a bit with the waveshape thingy but mine isn't behaving I think. Anyway, like I said, it's not really a ring mod nor is it PWM, but it's certainly rich.

Rex --

Thanks for trying this out and for the comments. If you use square waves (or more generally, rectangular waves) then I think you are recreating what the original Korg circuit does.
http://www.analog-synth.de/synths/ringmod/digital_ringmodulator.htm

In this case the waveshape control shouldn't have any effect, because rectangular waves always satisfy the threshold conditions no matter where the pot is set. If you have a chance to try out saw waves then the control should change the sound quite a bit.

I agree it's not all that much like a ring modulator. (Never understood why Korg called it that.) For example, if you feed both inputs the same saw wave, then you get a single pulse, whereas a true multiplier would give you sawtooth-like wave with a parabolic rather than linear rise. scratch

I'd like to figure out how to get bell sounds with this. Any idea where to start?

Very Happy

Ian


Ah ha. That makes more sense. It's interesting to watch on a scope.

Bell sounds, eh. That shouldn't be too hard. Since part of a bell's sound is amplitude modulation of inharmonic frequencies, I think we can do this.

How about these? I used 2 sine waves, kept the filter down (it's really the wrong filter to use anyway for a decent bell) and set an envelope to give a bell-ish envelope. The higher ones sound okay, I'm not as convinced on the lower ones, but this is just replying with about 5 minutes of setup.

A bell was amongst the first sounds I was allowed to make (on a Moog sonic 6) at the BSEM, once upon a time. Tuning the harmonics and getting the envelope to be convincing are the hardest parts. The filter makes a difference too. The 24dB ladder filter isn't exactly right.

I'm actually surprised that the circuit works this well with sine waves. And yes, you can waveshape them out of existence, now that I'm using a non-square wave.


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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmm, so I got curious about how well this circuit works for this stuff.

Here's a comparison of bell tones produced using the same 2 frequencies, using Ian's little circuit, then the ring modulator in the M5N, and finally the Moogerfooger Ring Modulator.

The audio clip runs thusly:

1 - VCO1 (sine wave)
2 - VCO2 (sine wave)
3 - VCO1 + VCO2 mixed
4 - Ian's circuit
5 - M5N RM (using VCO1 and 2 mixed equally)
6 - Moogerfooger (using VCO1 as carrier and VCO2 as signal) low output
7 - back to the M5N, briefly, then Ian's circuit again.

All of these use exactly the same envelope/filter (basically a percussive initial decay with no sustain and long release, 24dB ladder filter all the way down with some envelope bringing the Fc briefly to about 6-8kHz and back down).

Gives an idea of just how different AB modulators can sound, and why you can't have enough of them!


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frijitz



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EdisonRex wrote:
Gives an idea of just how different AB modulators can sound, and why you can't have enough of them!

EdisonRex --

Thanks for taking the time to do those. Very interesting. I read in a couple of places that the Korg digital RM could produce good bells, but I wondered how good they could be with all those harmonics splashed all over the place. Shocked

Guess I need to keep looking for good applications of the Analog XOR. It always seems to be pretty rough sounding. What about Tibetan monks chanting, or something?

Very Happy

Ian
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

FWIW, I built this passive ring modulator using a handful of diodes and a couple of audio transformers- the results were very "Tomita Church Bells" indeed Very Happy

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-7240.html

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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
EdisonRex wrote:
Gives an idea of just how different AB modulators can sound, and why you can't have enough of them!

EdisonRex --

Thanks for taking the time to do those. Very interesting. I read in a couple of places that the Korg digital RM could produce good bells, but I wondered how good they could be with all those harmonics splashed all over the place. Shocked

Guess I need to keep looking for good applications of the Analog XOR. It always seems to be pretty rough sounding. What about Tibetan monks chanting, or something?

Very Happy

Ian


I think, and now I recall my MS-20's little "ring" modulator, that you have to use these things in conjunction with filters to get any real value out of them.

Tibetan monks? Hmm, I could fire up the old Akai sampler and send it out one of the external mixer busses as A or B. Cool Laughing Idea

I actually think this circuit will find some use, although it might be for more conventional harmonic generation. I say this as my studio is reverberating with loud BONGs from some cathedral bell I just whipped up by mixing all of those sources together and adding in VCO3, with FM from VCO2, into the carrier on the Mooger. Very entertaining, but I think my wife is going to hurt me.

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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Whilst sitting on the biffy just now, reflecting on the wonderful examples that have been posted from this device (thanks much, Rex! Smile ) and the requirements for making more complex metallic sounds, I thought it may be worth building a pair of the devices, with a balance control to mix each of their outputs together.
In one example, this would allow very different Attack/Decay harmonics to be added together with a different overall set of harmonics, through the entire course of the sound.
As the range of sound possibilities from this unit (with Voltage Control) are huge, having two of them working with each other would be even larger.

As is typical with me modifying everything also, I'll more than likely have patchable output options when I build my prototype. A or B Balance; A XOR B; A-B; AxB.

I'll see what I have panel room for as I'm leaning towards a percussive angle for this module. (Though wishing to keep it open for other modulations).

More on it later, once I've breadboarded. Smile
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I tried making some bell-like sounds today. The XOR gave some interesting sounds, but most the bell sounds were pretty rough. Here's a short clip of one example using a rectangular wave and a sawtooth wave as inputs. The output was filtered with a fixed resonant band-pass and a swept resonant lo-pass then through a VCA driven by a double expo decay. The first half of the clip is from the XOR and the second from a multiplier RM through the same processing.

Ian


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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
I tried making some bell-like sounds today. The XOR gave some interesting sounds, but most the bell sounds were pretty rough. Here's a short clip of one example using a rectangular wave and a sawtooth wave as inputs. The output was filtered with a fixed resonant band-pass and a swept resonant lo-pass then through a VCA driven by a double expo decay. The first half of the clip is from the XOR and the second from a multiplier RM through the same processing.

Ian


Don't know about anyone else, but I myself FAR prefer the one from YOUR circuit, Ian! Much more resembling a bell with a metal striker impact. The 2nd one was FAR more subtle - almost as if it were hit with a soft mallet.

Who's RM was the 2nd one from?
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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

interesting. They do definitely make bellish sounds. Your circuit is more distinctive than the other, which sounds much like how my Moogerfooger treated the input.

I try to use less harmonically rich input for more "belly" bells. If one is aiming for cymbals or gongs, one might need more than one set of multipliers... I never found saws to do a good job making bell noises. There is too much harmonic content (like, all of it, actually).

It does give me more ideas to try, though. Glad you spent some time on it today, Ian!

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rykhaard wrote:
Don't know about anyone else, but I myself FAR prefer the one from YOUR circuit, Ian!


Same here, my first thought was that the samples must have been reversed Laughing

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rykhaard wrote:

Don't know about anyone else, but I myself FAR prefer the one from YOUR circuit, Ian! Much more resembling a bell with a metal striker impact. The 2nd one was FAR more subtle - almost as if it were hit with a soft mallet.

Who's RM was the 2nd one from?


err what?....where??......

Mine or Ian's or what??

When I made mine, I wasn't trying to emulate a bell- it just happened. I wasn't really trying to 'emulate' anything, it was just to show what a passive circuit would sound like. Personally I like both. Very Happy

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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Rykhaard wrote:

Don't know about anyone else, but I myself FAR prefer the one from YOUR circuit, Ian! Much more resembling a bell with a metal striker impact. The 2nd one was FAR more subtle - almost as if it were hit with a soft mallet.

Who's RM was the 2nd one from?


err what?....where??......

Mine or Ian's or what??

When I made mine, I wasn't trying to emulate a bell- it just happened. I wasn't really trying to 'emulate' anything, it was just to show what a passive circuit would sound like. Personally I like both. Very Happy


Sorry V! Very Happy I was referring to Ian's latest sample posting. Smile

On further note - given more thought earlier today, once I've successfully breadboarded Ian's for testing - I'm going to go with a dual version, ALONG with a 633 RM in the same panel. I bought 3 of the chips earlier this year. Figured it'd be a cool combination along with 2 of Ian's. Smile (Full patching availability for mixes / etc.)
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EdisonRex wrote:
I try to use less harmonically rich input for more "belly" bells.

Right. Actually feeding the XOR pulse signals at both inputs gave some decent sounds also. (This is like the original Korg.) The pulse/saw input is the simplest combination to use the analog features of the pseudo-XOR (fewest pulses on the output). Two tri waves to the inputs gives the most pulses and the roughest sounds. I found some nice harmonic sounds -- more like plucked strings -- also with the tri inputs.

Very Happy

Ian
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rykhaard wrote:
Who's RM was the 2nd one from?

Mine, of course. Laughing It's a straightforward MC1459 design. I selected through a batch of chips to find the ones with the lowest feedthrough.

Edit: Oooops, make that MC1495.

Last edited by frijitz on Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
Rykhaard wrote:
Who's RM was the 2nd one from?

Mine, of course. Laughing It's a straightforward MC1459 design. I selected through a batch of chips to find the ones with the lowest feedthrough.


Ohhhhh ooooops ummmmm uhhhhhh - nice weather today, isn't it? Very Happy
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Danno Gee Ray



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ian, Would you be able to post a schematic for that MC1459 design?
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Danno Gee Ray wrote:
Ian, Would you be able to post a schematic for that MC1459 design?

There is a schematic in the Opamp Cookbook. Or you can find it in the Electronotes Prefered Circuits Collection.

Ian
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Danno Gee Ray



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I found some for the MC1495, is that what you mean?
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Danno Gee Ray wrote:
I found some for the MC1495, is that what you mean?

Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed (yes).
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Danno Gee Ray



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don't feel bad, I do it too. I was just verifying so I didn't start chasing the wrong thing. Looks like an interesting circuit. Are the chips still readily available?
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Danno Gee Ray wrote:
Looks like an interesting circuit. Are the chips still readily available?

The chips are obsolete, and were quite fussy to work with anyway. Nowadays use the AD633. I think Roman has a good RM with that chip.
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fonik



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
Danno Gee Ray wrote:
Looks like an interesting circuit. Are the chips still readily available?

The chips are obsolete, and were quite fussy to work with anyway. Nowadays use the AD633. I think Roman has a good RM with that chip.

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-21895.html Very Happy

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Fernando



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It sounds very nice Ian, thank you
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
Rykhaard wrote:
Who's RM was the 2nd one from?

Mine, of course. :lol: It's a straightforward MC1459 design. I selected through a batch of chips to find the ones with the lowest feedthrough.

Edit: Oooops, make that MC1495.


Ian, I just opened a thread with a 1495-based filter, I'm curious about how it can sound...
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