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PCB pattern for René Schmitz "late" MS20 VCF?
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ericcoleridge



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:34 pm    Post subject: PCB pattern for René Schmitz "late" MS20 VCF? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Anyone?

Edit: Hope you don't mind, I altered the text of the title of the thread to reflect that this is René's design, just in case anybody might think I had a hand in the design (I didn't), though I don't mind basking in René's glory Laughing - Scott
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janvanvolt



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:28 pm    Post subject: Re: PCB pattern for Scott Sites/Rene Schmit "late" MS20 VCF? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ericcoleridge wrote:
Anyone?

Nope. But a "sooner or later i want that" project.

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midgetfidget



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.analog-synth.de/synths/mod2/ms20filter/rene_ms20_filter_clone%20rev%204.pdf
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's odd that this would come up - for the past couple of days I've been playing a lot with that module. It's a very powerful configuration. I'm not sure how close Rene's version comes to the actual "Late" version of the MS-20 filter, but this module produces some tremendous timbres.

My favorite mode of operation is to run a sawtooth through them in series HP->LP. I only modulate the LP section, I let either the HP or both track the CV. Now, the incredibly juicy part of it is to set the HP to full resonance, and slowly tune in various harmonics of the resonance. It produces some of the most incredible timbres - it more often than not sounds like you have two oscillators running at some very interesting intervals. Some of the sounds are exremely powerful, which makes me wonder how true it is to the MS-20 filter (I've invariably heard the MS-20 described as a rather "thin" sound, whatever that means).

One of the my boards in the module was an actual PCB I got from Rene when I visited him in 2004. The other was done on protoboard, and the extra control circuitry was put on protoboard as well.

Cheers,
Scott

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frijitz



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
It's odd that this would come up - for the past couple of days I've been playing a lot with that module.

Odd that *that* would come up, too. Surprised Just tonight I have been going through the math for how this filter works. According to what I have so far, the resonant LP should just barely get to the verge of oscillation. In other words, when the feedback gain is exactly 2, the circuit oscillates, but not if it is greater than 2 or less than 2. Is this how it works in practice? Seems odd, but that's how it came out.

Ian

Edit: I found a minor calculational anomaly. Sad It oscillates for gain > 2. Makes sense now.

Last edited by frijitz on Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Ian,

That rings true to some degree; it's rather an odd duck compared to my other filters.

With no signal input, it oscillates like a bat out of hell once the resonance control hits a certain point (I often use it, through the wave multiplier, as a spare oscillator). If you crank the resonance knob up higher (with no input) you still have solid oscillation.

With a signal applied, there's a certain balance to the input level and resonance. I'm sorry, I don't have any measurement data for you, just anecodotal info at best, but when the input is attenuated, it's easier to get oscillation - with a lot of input, the filter is less likely to oscillate, and the resonance becomes less pronounced.

Output level wise, it's never a problem - if you want a lot of resonance, and you lower your input level, the resonance picks up the slack, so to speak, in the output level. When the cutoff is swept, with high resonance, it's a very "dirty" kind of resonance - it's not (oh, God I hate these descriptions) a "creamy" resonance by any measure. When the resonance is high, but is not swept, but rather is tracking the same voltage that's controlling the VCO that is feeding it, that's where the real magic begins to happen for me.

Don't get me wrong, if I want very extreme "weird" it'll supply it, but I really like the effect of mid level input signal, and very high resonance tracking the V/Oct input, usually in the HP mode - it's unbelievable the timbres it can produce. Much like the physical modeling thing we discussed briefly a while back. Though the filter itself tracks V/Oct mildly well, it's not all that great, obviously. However, the resonance effect tracks the input well over a very wide range, much wider than the V/Oct response of the filter itself. That's another thing that makes the effect so nice.

Does your math have any explanation for the following, perchance? - The effect I'm talking about here works primarily with a sawtooth input - it's very easily controlled. A pulse input tends to make the resonance wiggle around a lot, doesn't "track" as far, and is therefore generally not as convincing. Is there any reason you can spot why this would be so?

I ought to see if Rene is interested in this thread. Haven't heard from him forever....guess that's because I haven't emailed him since forever. Embarassed

Cheers,
Scott

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midgetfidget



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i had a frostwave resonator (which is a clone of the ms20 filter) and that thing squealed with resonance if you turn the knob much past 12 o'clock.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well I've got the real thing - an MS20 that is, and the self oscillation on both high and low pass filters is vicious! (And I MEAN VICIOUS!!). The self-oscillation also covers a very wide frequency sweep range- it kicks in pretty quickly indicating that the filter is rather unstable. The sub is low enough to take speaker cones out. Shocked

As for the sound, the MS20 oscillators are very 'weak'-sounding ie they don't sound very 'American'. They are definately Japanese sounding- sometimes rather Casio-like Shocked The filter has a lovely raw, gutsy sound- quite 'wooden' in body (similar to the Mono-poly filter, but not as naff sounding- I never liked the filter on the mono-poly). However, filter feedback makes the MS20 really squeal, adding something 'extra-special' and I think that's what people like about them (Listen to Caustic Window/ AFX/ Aphex Twin sometime- when Richie was doing his hardcore 'porn techno' stuff Laughing )

The best thing about the MS20 is the external signal processor, and this gets even better when used with the MS20 dual filter and the oscillator in 'ring mod' mode. Plug a TB303 into this, and it goes mental!! Sounds good when processing drum machines too!)

It's a strange synth. It's too limited in the patching dept to be called a modular as such. It's one of those machines that really needs 'hacking'.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:


With no signal input, it oscillates like a bat out of hell once the resonance control hits a certain point (I often use it, through the wave multiplier, as a spare oscillator). If you crank the resonance knob up higher (with no input) you still have solid oscillation.

With a signal applied, there's a certain balance to the input level and resonance. I'm sorry, I don't have any measurement data for you, just anecodotal info at best, but when the input is attenuated, it's easier to get oscillation - with a lot of input, the filter is less likely to oscillate, and the resonance becomes less pronounced.




yes that's about right, but I'd say on the real thing even if a signal is present, it still goes into crazy oscillation. Perhaps the clone is slightly different?

Oh yes it's probably worth pointing out, although you can see this anyway from the schematics, that it's under linear rather than exponential control.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
The filter has a lovely raw, gutsy sound- quite 'wooden' in body (similar to the Mono-poly filter, but not as naff sounding- I never liked the filter on the mono-poly).


Yeah , although I dont own one, its sound is partly what got me into SDIY , there is the band called deutsch amerikan freundschaft (DAF) from the early 80's who mostly used the MS-20 ( i think ! ) and a 16 step sequencer quite basically - created a really powerfull and tasty sound , I feel it pretty much carried them ( judging on their lyrics! ), I love it

There was a thread on it already here

http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=ms20&t=20668

I was going to lay it out, but bubblechamber was laying it out so didnt bother - was going to wait , but he/she never released it? good to see there is one anyway

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loss1234



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

anybody know what kind of transistors those are supposed to be? bc's or 2n's?
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midgetfidget



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i've wanted an ms20 ever since seeing jamie lidell sing and process his voice through one, he was making some insane noise.

I agree about the DAF lyrics Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
anybody know what kind of transistors those are supposed to be? bc's or 2n's?


The ones specified in my schematic here are "2SA798, SSM2220 or general purpose PNPs glued together". http://electro-music.com/forum/phpbb-files/ms20_13700version_142.gif

So almost any PNP transistors will do.
If you want slick cv control, match the transistors or at least use transistors from the same batch.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow, thanks for all the replies. I found my math error -- the filters oscillate for feedback gain over 2.

Very Happy

Ian
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

softfin wrote:

If you want slick cv control, match the transistors or at least use transistors from the same batch.


That's interesting, because imo, it's the 'unstable' & crazy Hz/oct lunacy that adds to the overall sound of the MS20 filter. I suppose like the SN-voice it doesn't harm anything to have both options Very Happy Cool

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I matched the transistors, and it does a pretty fair job of tracking (there's no temp compensation). In fact, a good number of my Klee samples use one section of the filter as a VCO. Generally, I'll run the oscillating output out of one section, pass it through the wave multiplier, then patch it back into second section to filter that signal.

"Berserklee2" uses it as grinding low voice here

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/download.php?id=9915

Through Dim C, it produces the high airy notes in the 32 Step Klee sample here:

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/download.php?id=9912

And the high notes for "Ice Kleem Truck" here:

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/download.php?id=9938

Cheerios,
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ericcoleridge



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
I'm not sure how close Rene's version comes to the actual "Late" version of the MS-20 filter, but this module produces some tremendous timbres.


The reason I was looking for this PCB is because it looks like it's about the exact same circuit as the Late MS20 VCFs. Unlike many other schematics/PCBs I've seen online that are modeled after the earlier, Korg35 version of the filter (which may be good also, but my MS20 had this later "discrete" OTA VCF, and I loved it's sound).

Scott Stites wrote:

Some of the sounds are exremely powerful, which makes me wonder how true it is to the MS-20 filter (I've invariably heard the MS-20 described as a rather "thin" sound, whatever that means).


This sounds exactly right. It's the way that the two filters interact that is so unusual. I would always have both filters res just under the self oscillation point-- and this imparted a very strong, percussive quality on a sawtooth (especially).

I think maybe if one was to compare the MS20 LPF on it's own to say, a Mini LPF, it could be described as "thin." Also, there is a kind of brittle quality to some of the sounds that I could see people describing as thinness. But, of the dozen or so VCFs I've used over the years, I'd say the MS20 HP/LP is the most unusual and characteristic.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

midgetfidget wrote:
http://www.analog-synth.de/synths/mod2/ms20filter/rene_ms20_filter_clone%20rev%204.pdf


Thanks midgetfidget! Have you tried this PCB by any chance?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
With a signal applied, there's a certain balance to the input level and resonance. I'm sorry, I don't have any measurement data for you, just anecodotal info at best, but when the input is attenuated, it's easier to get oscillation - with a lot of input, the filter is less likely to oscillate, and the resonance becomes less pronounced. ..............

Does your math have any explanation for the following, perchance? - The effect I'm talking about here works primarily with a sawtooth input - it's very easily controlled. A pulse input tends to make the resonance wiggle around a lot, doesn't "track" as far, and is therefore generally not as convincing. Is there any reason you can spot why this would be so?
My guess would be that both of these effects stem from the action of the clipping in the feedback section. In the first case, perhaps a large input signal dominates the feedback signal, which is limited in amplitude. In the second case, the clipping could affect the two signals in quite different ways. (This is not happening, but to see what I mean, think about clipping a saw vs clipping a pulse. The waveshape changes in the first case but not in the second.)

The math is strictly linear so including the diodes and any OTA clipping would be a whole nother project.

I'm thinking about trying out a third-order version of these filters. I want to include VC resonance, which will make a total of four OTAs (two duals). This shoul have less of the "thinness" people are mentioning, which is undoubtedly due to the second order rolloff vs the fourth order rolloff of the Moog-type lopasses. I'm not sure exactly how to do the feedback -- the W. Jung cookbook suggests keeping the feedback around just two of the stages and just adding another tandem filter stage. But feedback around all three stages would also be an option.

Twisted Evil

Ian
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@ Ian

An extra meaty MS20 filter clone?
Yes please!
=D

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Looks like a good project for a couple of CA3080's laying around here somewhere. Very Happy

Are there any PCB patterns around for the Rene Schmitz VCO3 ??
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ericcoleridge wrote:
Quote:
midgetfidget wrote:
http://www.analog-synth.de/synths/mod2/ms20filter/rene_ms20_filter_clone%20rev%204.pdf


Thanks midgetfidget! Have you tried this PCB by any chance?


I've made this PCB and it works just fine. What people have said about the self-oscillation of this filter definitely applies... it was the first filter I built and it caught me a little off guard, I was more used to 'conventional' VCF's. But well worth making.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

[quote="Mr Clack"]
v-un-v wrote:
...there is the band called deutsch amerikan freundschaft (DAF) from the early 80's who mostly used the MS-20 ( i think ! ) and a 16 step sequencer quite basically - created a really powerfull and tasty sound , I feel it pretty much carried them ( judging on their lyrics! ), I love it...

OT:
do you remember them? IIRC stumm 1, the 1st mute records album, was a DAF! the lyrics where...mmmh... we germans had some problems with it Wink

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i dont really understand why people say ms20 is thin and cold, ive made some of the most thick and warm bass tones on the legacy vst, it took a while but nothing has come close since. i have wanted an real ms20 for so long
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's capable of both. I've used the external signal processor to feed the signal back into the filter's external inputs. This creates some really 'fat' bass/ leads.

I suppose this is also why it now sells at stupid prices? I've had 4 MS20's all in all. This one is my original one that I found in the Bristol trading pages for £35, about 14 years back. There are two on ebay now for over £800 each Shocked

If the MS20 can be cloned (or at least part of it), it should be done ASAP!

Apparently the MS10's filter sounds 'fuller' Confused

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