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 Forum index » Discussion » Diversity in electro-music
Do you think or do you feel music?
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
I'm a little confused...
By introducing the terms 'determinism' and 'indeterminism' the discussion tends to a philosophic direction, where the formulating of 'determinism' points toward a linguistic direction...



I would say that this discussion was bound straight for a philosophical direction anyway and that there really is no problem with that. How do we even know or "sense" that "feelings" and "thoughts" are different things? Can we even have one without the other?

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BTW music and ears are not that related to each other, because one can think music, at least, I can... Never use my ears during this process, while my feet are tapping the floor thinking the beat Very Happy


Just to provoke you I will call that a beautiful thought, a beautiful feeling as well as a beautiful philosophy. ;¬)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
... Empiricism has everything to do with it, as I see it. As I see it it's fundamentally impossible to test conclusively whether any one event is deterministic or in-deterministic.
Agree, but what is the connection? Smile
Quote:
You can hold, as you said you did, that (most) emotions are deterministic, somebody else might disagree and hold them to be based on such complicated processes that we can't meaningfully make that claim. One person might hold that "free will" is a "higher" concept outside of that sphere, perhaps like a "soul", another could see both as part of a larger deterministic process. likely many pick something else altogether.
Won't call it a 'higher' concept. It just about the role the free will has in it at all. Anyway, there is a tendency feelings are something higher and regarded as 'outside' the reality of a human being.
Quote:
I attempted to side-step that and took your interpretation of the "free" bit to mean "free of outside influence" which is how I liked it to "not caring" (on a admittedly exaggeratedly practical level ) and link that in turn to ms Joplin.
Yep! In my option a rather pessimistic concept. BTW Ms Joplin only sang the song, Mr Kris Kristofferson wrote it Smile
Quote:
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you altogether
As always, Kassen, as always Wink
Quote:
but seeing it that way suddenly makes a lot of practical sense to me either way, so thanks :¬).
Here you go!
Quote:
(I also get a lot of joy from mis-reading signs....)
Well they can take you to strange and unexpected places, don't they?

Wout

PS january 31 there is the opening of our cheese-shop Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cheese??? Shocked Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
Agree, but what is the connection? Smile


The connection is that if we can't tell the difference conclusively then it's important to realise the distinction may be placed arbitrarily by anyone. As I see it that comes down to admitting we are all talking about very different things.

&-"I'm in love"
§-"Oh, really? I'm not sure I ever have been but lately I've been enjoying the release of endorphins caused by contacting the pheromones of this person I'm around a lot"

If this still seems abstract; I'm saying that the distinction between "feeling" and "thinking" music may not be there at all.

Quote:
Won't call it a 'higher' concept. It just about the role the free will has in it at all. Anyway, there is a tendency feelings are something higher and regarded as 'outside' the reality of a human being.


That's cool, I'm not particularly attached to the "higher" word, "outside" will do just fine, as long as we keep in mind we have no way of knowing whether they actually *are*

Quote:
Yep! In my option a rather pessimistic concept. BTW Ms Joplin only sang the song, Mr Kris Kristofferson wrote it Smile


Right you are, along with one F.Foster, according to the liner notes I have here (dug it up for the occasion). I really don't know if such concepts are "pessimistic", I don't think I hold concepts to be "pessimist", only perspectives. Some people might hold the above statement about pheromones to be a bleak idea, I wonder if those people ever take drugs or even eat chocolate.



Quote:

As always, Kassen, as always Wink


Well, for a misunderstanding we seem to have reached quite a bit of agreement so far.

Quote:

PS january 31 there is the opening of our cheese-shop Smile


My congratulations! Isn't it nice how achieving such goals releases these amphetamines that make you feel good for a while? :¬p

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
As always, Kassen, as always Wink
Kassen wrote:
Well, for a misunderstanding we seem to have reached quite a bit of agreement so far.
Nah... It's just because we are writing instead of talking. Now we take our time formulating our thoughts, at least, I do Wink

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, in spoken debates you can push linguistics to see when and where they'll break as well.
;¬)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EdisonRex wrote:


This gives me a lot of understanding. Idea Shocked Wow.

I do not know which part of your brain they worked on. I will guess that it was frontal, as our emotions and creative thinking are there.


Frontal brain trauma can inflict a change of personality on you. You can get a person which laughes about anything for example.

I was injured slightly on the left side, a little behind the frontal. It lead to my impossibility to know names, foreign words and a lot of subjects.
If I write something down, I only understand what I am saying, if it is not longer than three to five words.

If music had a logical structure that was longer than five understandable symbols, I would currently not understand it. I know in a lot of cases that I do not understand it anymore.
This is not the case in feelings that I have about the music I hear. there I think that everything I hear is complete, because my feelings are there at every moment.I can not explain logically why this is the case but I am quite confident that I have understood fully in my own way- which is indeterministic because I say, in my free will, that I understand it, without being able to explain why. This does not mean that there might not be an explanation, but I do not have it. It is like being in a shop without ability to add numbers to a price but to see a price all the time and tell it to the customer.


EdisonRex wrote:

That said, people use music in different ways. It's not a simple story.


If it is not a simple story, we are talking something we might feel about without knowing exactly why. But we know it is alright nonetheless.

EdisonRex wrote:

Music is part of humanity in much the way that sex is, as far as I can tell.

So you can tell that music is like sex and even if sex is different with any person you have it with, you can explain that. You do not even need a language or to read in a book about sex before you can discribe it, you only look at yourself.

EdisonRex wrote:

... everyone has a different opinion. It is very subjective, and it is part of our social culture to classify ourselves via our musical tastes.


Do you mean: : Using our feelings about certain music we tell other people about ourselves? Such that every song is feeling like sex with a different person?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phoenix wrote:

If music had a logical structure that was longer than five understandable symbols, I would currently not understand it. I know in a lot of cases that I do not understand it anymore.
This is not the case in feelings that I have about the music I hear. there I think that everything I hear is complete, because my feelings are there at every moment.I can not explain logically why this is the case but I am quite confident that I have understood fully in my own way- which is indeterministic because I say, in my free will, that I understand it, without being able to explain why. This does not mean that there might not be an explanation, but I do not have it. It is like being in a shop without ability to add numbers to a price but to see a price all the time and tell it to the customer.


Well, I suspect a lot of people experience feelings without being able to analyze them. Philosophers explore these sorts of issues, as do psychiatrists.

Quote:

If it is not a simple story, we are talking something we might feel about without knowing exactly why. But we know it is alright nonetheless.


Yes, this can be interpreted that way. Personal values ("I know what I like") and personal ethics ("I know what is right") are at work here. I am not necessarily qualified to discuss clinically why this is, although I might be able to recommend some reading material.

Quote:

So you can tell that music is like sex and even if sex is different with any person you have it with, you can explain that. You do not even need a language or to read in a book about sex before you can discribe it, you only look at yourself.


That it is different is not the point. That it is a human function is. I am merely taking a position that appreciation of music is a natrual human function.

Quote:

Do you mean: : Using our feelings about certain music we tell other people about ourselves? Such that every song is feeling like sex with a different person?


Yes, in a way. Music can evoke strong emotions. So can political debates, and certainly so can interpersonal relationships. I don't know that everyone would agree that it's like sex, but I am describing basic functions. I know there have been clinical studies on the emotive aspects of music appreciation. I'll try to go find some.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbinkovitz wrote:
I definitely feel music....I am working on getting better at 'thinking' music, since I think being able to do both gives you real creative freedom.


Absolutely me too! The music I enjoy most has a balance between the two.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phoenix wrote:
If I write something down, I only understand what I am saying, if it is not longer than three to five words.

If music had a logical structure that was longer than five understandable symbols, I would currently not understand it. -

Doesn't that assume that the logic of music and the logic of language is the same, processed the same and in the same places?

May I ask what kinds of music are most satisfying to you?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EdisonRex wrote:
... I am describing basic functions. I know there have been clinical studies on the emotive aspects of music appreciation. I'll try to go find some.


cool, I am interested in these studies.

In medicine, there is a very interesting emotion using a strategy called Placebo. Ten patients have headache. All are told that they are being given a new medicament which is great against headache, while they get water with sugar in it.
Six of these ten patients have afterwards been shown to have no headache while four kept it.

So, in some patients, the release of bad headache can be initiated by telling them something which causes a clear conviction that they get into a position where this will sincerely happen.
Nonetheless it is a clear deterministic lie. Not the water and sugar help the patients but their conviction that it helps. The body reacts to the belief of a good medicament, even if it does not work where the body in turn can.

Maybe music chas very similar functions not only for your emotions or logical thinking, but even for the way your body reacts.

Bachus wrote:

May I ask what kinds of music are most satisfying to you?


Sure! For example:
I listened to Nine inch Nails "Closer" a lot when I was about 16 years old. It has the following sentence:

"You let me violate you, you let me desecrate you
You let me penetrate you, you let me complicate you
Help me I broke apart my insides, help me Ive got no
Soul to tell
Help me the only thing that works for me, help me get
Away from myself"

Closer is musically aggressive and when I dance to it I feel like getting one of the strongest and most aggressive persons.
Then I let myself fall into the sentences of Trent Reznor and I know that I am like it is being told in the song: I am violating a different person! The other person is not strong enough to react against me, which showed me how strong I am. There are a lot more different things that this song activates in me, some because of the musical aggressiveness, others because of the (Placebo-) convictioning text. This is not what is really happening currently but something Trent is telling me about myself- if I let him convince me of it.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:

Doesn't that assume that the logic of music and the logic of language is the same, processed the same and in the same places?


I think so. It's untrue though.

Brain scans show the areas of the brain used for music are more like the ones used for math. I'm not sure how that relates to the use of symbols, for symbols we -or so it seems so far- need language.

Perhaps music isn't as symbolic as we may think?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Perhaps music isn't as symbolic as we may think?
Symbolism in music dates from the romantic period, specially around the middle of the nineteenth century.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
Symbolism in music dates from the romantic period, specially around the middle of the nineteenth century.

Wout


Sorry, that's not the sense of the word I meant. I meant the word like "reference", any call-response structure and arguably any repetition could be seen as symbolic.

I was way to brief there, I meant that we can't necisarily say the brain treats musical symbolism like linguistic symbols, arguably all mental processes are symbolic.

Interestingly, we don't process all kinds of symbolism the same way.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As a helpfull hint;

Quote:
Determinism is the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition and behavior, decision and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences. Determinism may also be defined as the thesis that there is at any instant exactly one physically possible future


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

This does NOT equate to

Quote:

Music is logically explainable and this explanation is the same if it is read tomorrow again.


You could have perfectly deterministic processes that are so complicated that nobody will ever understand or explain them. Actually you can wonder whether the human brain can ever understand the human brain because of the meta-level required for the self-referential nature of the question.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is always the thing with Wikipedia Smile Determinism and free will are linked together, which is very important. (What about the Neurenberger process...) The part 'The nature of determinism' tells about the free will.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
... I meant the word like "reference", any call-response structure and arguably any repetition could be seen as symbolic.
To what does a repetition refer then, other then the part which is repeated?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
To what does a repetition refer then, other then the part which is repeated?


Nothing else, necessarily, but that's no real issue.

Consider pure math, like you question op operator precedence. This doesn't refer to anything, except math, yet it's highly symbolic.

It may interest you that one of the most influential thinkers (if not THE most influential person) in the field of the formal meaning of language (and thus what it symbolises), was originally a mathematician;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frege

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ahh.. you noticed my implied reference to Frege in that other thread somewhere..?! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Ahh.. you noticed my implied reference to Frege in that other thread somewhere..?! Very Happy


I don't think so, I just used to study artificial intelligence so I'd run into him in logic and language philosophy classes.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

[quote="Kassen"] As a helpfull hint;

Quote:
Determinism is the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition and behavior, decision and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences. Determinism may also be defined as the thesis that there is at any instant exactly one physically possible future


Last I heard it was still not possable to rule out the "many worlds" interpretation of QM, which if correct would change certain implications. Either way my guess is that existence is Deterministic as described above. But I think guesses are all that anybody has. Eh?

Kassen wrote:

This does NOT equate to ...


I have to agree with that.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, that's true, but you can also wonder if it's not the case that any one of those "many worlds" within itself and it's own history is deterministic.

Either way, regardless of the rather informal usage of "determinism" here&there by some I think it's now becoming clear that what's more interesting is whether we experience the experience of music as a feeling, a thought or both and why. This leaves the whole question of "deterministic feelings" and so on open. Even if we don't know that feelings and thoughts are different sorts of things, we may experience them as such, and that's really what the topic was aimed at, I believe.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Yes, that's true, but you can also wonder if it's not the case that any one of those "many worlds" within itself and it's own history is deterministic..


My guess is yes, and you?

Kassen wrote:
Either way, regardless of the rather informal usage of "determinism" here&there by some I think it's now becoming clear that what's more interesting is whether we experience the experience of music as a feeling, a thought or both and why.


One, the other, or both as is appropriate to the context? I much prefer my mind to shut up and just enjoy the experience. But there are of course times when you want to do analysis.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
Kassen wrote:
Yes, that's true, but you can also wonder if it's not the case that any one of those "many worlds" within itself and it's own history is deterministic..


My guess is yes, and you?


At first I thought so too, but the repercussions are quite sever. I think that if we want to have determinism and multiple worlds in that way that would imply the laws of nature are continually being defined and defined in slightly different ways for all worlds.... Or you could have different perspectives on determinism depending on whether you are looking at the past or the future.


Quote:

One, the other, or both as is appropriate to the context? I much prefer my mind to shut up and just enjoy the experience. But there are of course times when you want to do analysis.


I think the question was intended to be about one, the other or both depending on the person?

I dunno anymore. :¬)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

I think the question was intended to be about one, the other or both depending on the person?


Yes I am interested in "depending on the person". It seems to me that we all are quite different how we interprete heard music, and quite different how we show music around.

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