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 Forum index » How-tos » Production - engineering/mixing
sounds so nice with headphones, but.....
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larns



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:21 pm    Post subject: sounds so nice with headphones, but..... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

when I take them off and turn up the monitor output, that warm phat sound suddenly seems like an illusion. Do headphones generaly sound better than speakers? or did I buy the wrong headphones?

They are monitoring closed back headphones (SENNHEISER HD270)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

When I monitor with headphones a later listen on speakers sometimes reveals that it's really muddy - I didn't pay enough attention to the low frequencies then, usually resulting in them being too loud and too low.
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Danno Gee Ray



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You might want to try a pair of flat response head phones. Mine are Audio Technica ATH-M40/s. Some headphones are manufactured with their response curve set to emphasize low frequencies. When these are used for mixdown monitoring the result could be de-emphasis of lows when played back on other systems. The result would then sound very thin.
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soundwave106



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:58 pm    Post subject: Re: sounds so nice with headphones, but..... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

larns wrote:
when I take them off and turn up the monitor output, that warm phat sound suddenly seems like an illusion. Do headphones generaly sound better than speakers? or did I buy the wrong headphones?


The "bass boosted phones" deal mentioned below is a possibility. Might be the monitors too.

I have found that the typical two-speaker setup that I see for many of the lower-cost monitors do not seem to have sufficient bass frequencies at the lower range of the spectrum; the few frequency response spectrums I find of lower-cost models seem to confirm that below 100Hz the "flat" response often starts to degrade, hitting the -3dB mark around 40Hz-45Hz (bass guitar low E = 41.2Hz). For synthesizers, IMHO, -3dB @ 45Hz isn't good enough. Smile Not surprising considering lower-cost studio monitors resemble bookshelf speakers.

Anyways, this (to my ears) can make analogs sound less "warm and phat" (definitions vary, but the power of the bass sound is what I'm talking about). Sure, these monitors don't have an artificial bass boost like some headphones do -- which is good in many ways, but it's hard to monitor deep subbass when the response at 30Hz is -15dB or whatever.

Three-way systems -- whether integrated (best) or sat/sub -- sound better on any "phat bass sound" to my ears. They are also more expensive. PAs too also allow you to hear the power, even the two ways (thanks to two-way PAs configured at 1" tweeter / 12"-15" woofer instead of 1" tweeter / 6-8" woofer. More power at the expense of midrange accuracy.)
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ObsoleteSystems



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the key to recording is not using headphones meant for recreational listening. They often add frequencies and their own special equalization to the sound so that it sounds warmer.

You want headphones that have a flat EQ in them so that you have a clear unfiltered audio representation of what you're recording...
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Danno Gee Ray



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ObsoleteSystems wrote:
the key to recording is not using headphones meant for recreational listening. They often add frequencies and their own special equalization to the sound so that it sounds warmer.

You want headphones that have a flat EQ in them so that you have a clear unfiltered audio representation of what you're recording...


Yeah...what he said.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I find the same thing.
After listening to various signals through headphones, i go back to my DM110s and feel like they are a bit thin.
I know that the DM110s are good near field monitors, and yet the mind is tricked by the contained environment of the headphones (Seinheiser)
In an effort to equalise this effect, I built a sub for my monitoring setup. I keep it very subtle, (if I can hear it, it's too loud) but just enough to fill in the 20hz to 60hz range, as was pointed out by Soundwave106.
Above and beyond all of these considerations, we have to keep in mind the fact that the music we produce may be played on any number of systems, with both great and shockingly bad responses.
Whenever I master a piece, I listen to a copy of it on a crappy boom box, just to give me a different perspective.
Ultimately, it comes down to, who are you creating music for?
If you're creating it purely for yourself, then make it sound good on your system.
As soon as someone downloads a copy and plays it through their $20 computer monitors, it's in the lap of the gods. You can't fix subjectivity.

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larns



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks, i see what you mean, my monitors Frequency Response is: 53Hz - 20kHz, ±3dB, Ref 500Hz my heaphones must be much lower than that, so i suppose i need to get a sub monitor. but still they do repspond well for thier size.
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Synthtech



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Headphones cannot be used as a substitute for nearfield monitors for mixing. There are many reasons, here are a few:

You cannot hear phase problems because the right ear only hears the right channel and the left ear only the left channel.

Industrial deafness.

Exaggerated perception of reverb and delays.

Poor bottom end response, and if you get bass boosted cans, see point 2.

Cans are great mix aids, they make excellent microscopes, but sitting under a pair of cans for hours on end is a great recipe for hearing damage, and in the end you will have to re-mix on speakers anyway.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Indeed, headphones can be tricky bastards. You won´t notice phase disasters that will kill the recording when played back on monitors. In fact, some serious phase issues will rather sound pretty cool.

I think it is a better approach to go from "monitors in a real room" ( a properly damped and treated room ) to headphones and then balance the mix a bit in order to make it work for the iPod generation.

As for very deep bass, try to remember that too much bass is a more urgent problem for home recordists than too little. If a recording sounds muddy in the bass regions on studio monitors then it is highly likely that you have to bass all over the place and it is also likely that your room is playing tricks on you as well.

There is also amazingly little true deep bass in a lot of current pop music even though it doesn´t sound like that is the case.

As for studio monitors, the real reason for choosing good monitors that according to the spec sheet does say 35HZ at -3dB is that these will deliver the octaves above far better that monitors that round off at 50 or 80HZ. It is not good practice to choose monitors in order to enjoy the cutoff/roundoff frequency. It is here they usually perform the worst anyways.

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Last edited by elektro80 on Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Synthtech



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Indeed, headphones can be tricky bastards. You won´t notice phase disasters that will kill the recording when played back on monitors. In fact, some serious phase issues will rather sound pretty cool.

I think it is a better approach to go from "monitors in a real room" ( a properly damped and treated room ) to headphones and then balance the mix a bit in order to make it work for the iPod generation.

As for very deep bass, try to remember that to much bass is a more urgent problem for home recordists than too little. If a recording sounds muddy in the bass regions on studio monitors then there s highly likely that you have to bass all over the place and it is also likely that your room is playing tricks on you as well.

There is also amazingly little true deep bass in a lot of current pop music even though it doesn´t sound like that is the case.

As for studio monitors, the real reason for choosing good monitors that according to the spec sheet does say 35HZ at -3dB is that these will deliver the octaves above far better that monitors that round off at 50 or 80HZ. It is not good practice to choose monitors in order to enjoy the cutoff/roundoff frequency. It is here they usually perform the worst anyways.


This prticular post should be required reading for all home recordists Idea

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

THX Very Happy
Idea

BTW.. we have some slightly related stuff in this thread

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fwiw, almost everything I've ever recorded has been mixed on headphones. I suppose the trick is to know your phones. On satuerday night I went out drinking and we went back to a friends- got out more beer, rolled joints, you know etc etc....Then I played some of my stuff (good old electro-music.com server Very Happy ), and the shit-hot monitors (genelec's and cheaper KRK's- or ROK's- can'r remember)- all the tracks sounded great!

I use DT231's generally and swap over to DT-100's for comparison.

I once did a remix for an American band called Charles Atlas (nothing to do with the body builder!) and originally I had done the first mix on Alesis monitor 1's- but because the disc I was sent in the post, containing AIFF's came smashed to pieces, I had to get the files sent my email- via mp3 Shocked . Of course, they sounded awful, and when I had done the mix using the Alesis' set, it still sounded awful- and messing with the eq did nothing much. But then I put on my phones (DT100's), and instantly I could hear which frequency there was too much of. While still listening on the cans, I cut it using a channel sweep eq in Logic, and the track then sounded tonnes better!

I also highly recommend listening to tracks in the car. Seriously! Wink

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larns



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks Synthtech

thanks everyone, some of this is gold dust to me, ive been writing electro for just under a year, although i can sequence very well, mixing down has always been trouble for me. I'm considering recoding each track to WAV then taking it to my local recording studio for professional mix down, becuase i will learn a thing or 2, plus thier equiptment is shit hot.

do you think this is a good idea?


Quote:
also highly recommend listening to tracks in the car. Seriously!


it's funny you mention that, every time i have a new track, I take it into my car and listen to it, i find if it sounds good here it will sound good on most systems, because its a small space, you get am amazing sound in a car.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

what are your thoughts on M-Audio IE-40?
are ear buds a worthwhile investment?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've never heard those particular earphones, but I think ear buds like that which couple directly to the ear canal offer the best opportunity to have full-range sound. I've done many experiments to verify that.

I have had many earbuds over the years. I love them. Some thoughts.

1) cost means absolutely nothing. The best earbuds I have cost $30. I've spent as much as $130 for them. Perhaps the M-Audio $500 earbuds are worth the money, but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion without listening. In any case, these shouldn't be used for mixing, IMHO.

2) reading customer reviews on the internet means less than price. You probably know that, but I feel it must be stated.

2) the bass response in a good set of ear buds will beat virtually any speaker system you can afford. This is because of the direct couple between the driver and the ear canal.


Sennheizer makes great headphones. If you like the 270s, that's great; you can spend a lot of money on a quest for the perfect headphones.


As suggested by previous posters, I think it is best to find some good monitors for mixing. Set them at 60 degrees separation from your mixing position. This is very important. If possible get several different ones to compare. Using a boom box and listening in the car is good too. Then, when you have what you think is a good mix, listen on your headphones; it will often sound much better on headphones/earbuds, but you may find you want to adjust something.

Here's something else to consider - the stereo sweet spot. Listen to your mixes when you are not equidistant between the speakers (don't mix that way, but listen). That's the way most people will be hearing your music. There are many deficiencies with stereo reproduction. There isn't much one can do about it, but listening carefully to the differences between on-axis and off-axis will always be instructive. Ironically, I've found that the most expensive high-end systems are are tuned to provide great sound at the sweet-spot and tend to degrade significantly when off-axis. This is fruit for another topic. In car audio is almost always off axis and full of ridiculously destructive reflections. It's good to be aware of what is going on.

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
In any case, these shouldn't be used for mixing, IMHO.


Agreed.


mosc wrote:
In car audio is almost always off axis and full of ridiculously destructive reflections. It's good to be aware of what is going on.



Very true.



There is a bit of mythology that is sadly being communicated by the music gear magazines. They are are talking about how this or that device will help you make mixes that will "translate" well. The very concept of how a good mix equals one that will "translate" well is hogwash. It is however true that decent gear will be of help when you want to make a good mix, but obviously the best mix of say a requiem with a magnificent choir or your next epic soundtrack is not something you would really want to listen to on a ghettoblaster or in your car.

It is however possible to take into consideration that your track must sound almost decent on hilariously bad playback devices when you make a mix and as Howard is suggesting here; knowing a bit about how things really work will often be a good thing.

I still think that this approach is best:
1. mix and master for a decent home stereo system
2. take into consideration that the music must sound reasonably OK on a mono radio.
3. allow for the mix to work on headphones and if possible leave in some detail that is only heard when using headphones or a really high end stereo system.

I should add that there will always be genre specific considerations, so if your music is clearly within a specific genre then you should do some serious research into what the rules are.

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