Author |
Message |
vtl5c3
Joined: Sep 08, 2006 Posts: 425 Location: PDX
Audio files: 13
|
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject:
Haible Vokoder? |
|
|
Hi Juergen,
I know that you've built a few vocoders over the years. Do you think you would ever design one for us?
Please? Pretty please?
(c;
Romeo |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:11 am Post subject:
Re: Haible Vokoder? |
|
|
vtl5c3 wrote: | Hi Juergen,
I know that you've built a few vocoders over the years. Do you think you would ever design one for us?
Please? Pretty please?
(c;
Romeo |
Maybe.
My motivation to buy the Rimu PCB layout software originally was to build a vocoder, after all.
The big question - especially with a big, expensive PCB involved! - is, how big is the market for such a thing?
Well, I might distribute it over several PCBs.
My thoughts for a vocoder, if I ever make another one, go like this:
A reasonable number of bands.
Not too few - for good speech quality.
Not too many - I want the "analogue vocoder sound" - not something close to a digital solution. 14 ... 16 seem about right.
Lowest noise filters. I'd use the same technology as in the String Filter.
High dynamic range envelope detectors, with VC slew and freeze function.
A filtered (!) silence bridging like the Sennheiser. IMO, this makes all the difference in a lot of applications.
An interface for cross-patching and digital storage.
Cross ptaching: Everybody can choose his or her favorite means of cross-patching: a matrix, a patchbay, you name it. Or simply omit it.
Digital storage: Stora a "snapshot" of VCA settings. You can use the analogue freeze function for a coule of minutes, sure - but after that, you'd better store the parameters away in a RAM ...
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:10 am Post subject:
|
|
|
There was once a vocoder design idea in ETI that was entirely made from CMOS chips (for the filter bands)- making it incredibly cheap to build (like Jurgen quite rightly said- vocoders ain't cheap!) _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:17 am Post subject:
|
|
|
v-un-v wrote: | There was once a vocoder design idea in ETI that was entirely made from CMOS chips (for the filter bands)- making it incredibly cheap to build (like Jurgen quite rightly said- vocoders ain't cheap!) |
Without knowing that particular ETI design idea, I think it's save to say that it's never the active components that make a vocoder expensive. It's the passives: either tightly spec'ed or selected capacitors, or trimpots. And the front panel controls, the printed circuit board, enclosure, patch matrix - that kind of stuff.
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:07 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Oh yes I know
The CMOS design hardly had any passives btw- what were there were just for tuning and levels if my memory serves me right- it was a long, long time ago! _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
ringer
Joined: Feb 20, 2007 Posts: 49 Location: montreal
|
Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:18 am Post subject:
|
|
|
I think a cross-pollination of the Sennheiser and the EMS 5000 would be a good starting point.
cheers |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
vtl5c3
Joined: Sep 08, 2006 Posts: 425 Location: PDX
Audio files: 13
|
Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Hi JH,
Sorry, I hope that didn't totally blindside you!
I think 16 bands would be great. Crosspatching too. I think that creates a lot of possibilities. What does the 'Freeze' option do? Can you do choir type pads or something?
As far as market goes, I bet you'd get enough takers if you put the word out. I mean, did you ever think you'd sell as many frequency shifter boards as you did? |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:02 am Post subject:
|
|
|
vtl5c3 wrote: | Hi JH,
Sorry, I hope that didn't totally blindside you!
I think 16 bands would be great. Crosspatching too. I think that creates a lot of possibilities. What does the 'Freeze' option do? Can you do choir type pads or something?
As far as market goes, I bet you'd get enough takers if you put the word out. I mean, did you ever think you'd sell as many frequency shifter boards as you did? |
Number of FS-1A boards came as a surprise, because I did my best to frighten as many of you away as possible, repeating all over what a difficult project it is, with capacitor measuring and resistor selecting, and the need of a scope and all.
But then again, these two PCBs were rather cheap, cmpared to the price tag of a Moog/Bode Frequency shifter.
For a vocoder, it would be the other way round: Not that hard to build, but rather expensive, simply because it's so huge.
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1
|
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:05 am Post subject:
|
|
|
JH, if you don't want a heart attack (!), I've got a number of old Elektor magazines, and I've also got the full Vocoder set too (I only think there were 2. 3 if you count the voiced/ unvoiced detector.
The PCB layouts are all there
Shall I dig these out for anyone? _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:12 am Post subject:
|
|
|
v-un-v wrote: | JH, if you don't want a heart attack (!), I've got a number of old Elektor magazines, and I've also got the full Vocoder set too (I only think there were 2. 3 if you count the voiced/ unvoiced detector.
The PCB layouts are all there
Shall I dig these out for anyone? |
It's been a while since I've seen these, but I definitely have them, or used to have them.
I don't rememeber the details, but it didn't seem that attractive at the time.
Especially when compared to the Elrad/ETI/Powertran vocoder which has been published around the same time. But I don't want to dismiss anything without being able to say why. Maybe if I see it again, I can tell more.
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
dar303
Joined: Jul 15, 2007 Posts: 97 Location: Sweden
|
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:45 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Maybe you should do it entierly in SMD to keep the size down?
That would scare away a few but it's really not that hard to solder without any special tools if you keep the components at a reasonable size (0805 or 1206). |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 1113 Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
|
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:32 am Post subject:
|
|
|
An SMD vocoder would be a thing of beauty. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
mono-poly
Joined: Jul 07, 2004 Posts: 937 Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Audio files: 2
|
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:38 am Post subject:
|
|
|
You should base your desing on the EMS ones.
These are the greatest vocoders i know. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:47 am Post subject:
|
|
|
dar303 wrote: | Maybe you should do it entierly in SMD to keep the size down?
That would scare away a few but it's really not that hard to solder without any special tools if you keep the components at a reasonable size (0805 or 1206). |
I'm not so sure about SMD.
Vertically mounted thru-hole resistors don't take more space than SMD resistors. Good quality capacitors don't come in SMD for large values - and small values means larger resistor values = more noise.
(Not speaking about electronics in general - just filter banks, vocoders, and stuff.)
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:55 am Post subject:
|
|
|
mono-poly wrote: | You should base your desing on the EMS ones.
These are the greatest vocoders i know. |
I've reverse-enigineered the EMS 2000 / 3000 last year, starting with schematics without component values, and a lot of pictures from the inside of a 3000 - yes, translating (and often guessing) every single colour code.
But I won't make any direct EMS copy for the same reason why I don't sell any VCS3 clone circuits etc.
But there is more.
I'm pretty convinced that Tim Orr didn't just make a scaled-down version for ETI after he designed the EMS vocoder (in part he did, most obviously), but that he also improoved some aspects of his earlier design.
And then there is Sennheiser, of course.
Plus, I have some additional ideas of my own.
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
StephenGiles
Joined: Apr 17, 2006 Posts: 507 Location: England
|
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Perhaps the only worthwhile circuits published by ETI were designed by Tim Orr. As ETI was legendary for it's minimal payments to designers, he must have had some clout with the rag through the advertising account!! |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
mono-poly
Joined: Jul 07, 2004 Posts: 937 Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Audio files: 2
|
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
The Senheiser isn't that good imho. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
mono-poly wrote: | The Senheiser isn't that good imho. |
Hmm ... it's a tad noisy, and it doesn't have a slew / freeze function.
But its speech intelligibility and silence bridging blow the small EMS vocoders away. (Don't know about the 5000, though.)
It's fascinating how the Sennheiser makes a lingering sound suddenly start to "speak" without a noticeable crossfade - that's due to its multifilter, I think.
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
mono-poly
Joined: Jul 07, 2004 Posts: 937 Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Audio files: 2
|
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
I think the ems 3000 vocoder is the coolest sounding.
To me it sounded cooler as the Senheiser somehow.
Even cooler as the Moog/Bode vocoder to.
But perhaps i just got a bad taste. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
mono-poly wrote: | I think the ems 3000 vocoder is the coolest sounding.
To me it sounded cooler as the Senheiser somehow.
Even cooler as the Moog/Bode vocoder to.
But perhaps i just got a bad taste. |
I certainly love the EMS Vocoder on Oldfield's QE2 and Five Miles Out, and ABBA's "Me And I" !
And I think I hear a Sennheiser on Schulze's Audentity.
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
robovoice
Joined: May 23, 2008 Posts: 48 Location: Denver
Audio files: 12
|
Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 1:01 am Post subject:
Vocoders Subject description: Vocoder(s) used on... |
|
|
jhaible wrote: | I certainly love the EMS Vocoder on Oldfield's QE2 and Five Miles Out, and ABBA's "Me And I" !
And I think I hear a Sennheiser on Schulze's Audentity.
JH. |
Did "Five Miles Out" also use an EMS Vocoder? Because that's a Roland VP-330 Vocoder Plus MkI, the same as the "Prologue" intro to "Twilight" from the "Time" LP by ELO. On the "Out of the Blue" and "Discovery" LPs they used an EMS Vocoder 2000W MkI. Someone named "Micke" (not sure if he's here) says they used either of the Bode/Moog Vocoder's, but most likely the Bode because of the date (I remember watching a concert from Birmingham on PBS in which they used a Korg VC-10 Keyboard/Vocoder). Bode came-out a year or two before the Moog. Idk but I think 7702 stands for February 1977. Abba's last song with video was a vocoder song, drtn. The Sennheiser Vocoder VSM201 was used by Kraftwerk (they used most of "the golden age of analog hardware vocoders", but mostly the VSM201), Herbie Hancock, The Rockets, and Telex for example. Kraftwerk had two prototype vocoders that I know of, one built by Sennheiser (before the VSM201), and the other built by R. Barth KG (before the Musicoder). One of them was on eBay a year ago or so, but nsw.
I believe I hear the EMS Vocoder-System 3000 used in "Never Say Never Again". I also believe it to be among the EMS 1000, 2000, or 5000 (but not 3000 since it wasn't out then) and NOT the Sennheiser Vocoder VSM201 that was used as the voices for the Cylon Centurions from the original-series of "Battlestar Galactica"!! And Soundwave of "The Transformers" is one of the two Roland VP-330 Vocoder Plus models. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 1:40 am Post subject:
Re: Vocoders Subject description: Vocoder(s) used on... |
|
|
robovoice wrote: |
Did "Five Miles Out" also use an EMS Vocoder? Because that's a Roland VP-330 Vocoder Plus MkI,
|
I'm not entirely sure about the the EMS on Five Miles Out.
But I think I remember the EMS 2000 from the "Live at Montreux 1981" DVD.
I guess I'll better double check this - so I have an excuse for watching this outstanding concert again.
http://www.amazon.de/Mike-Oldfield-Live-Montreux-1981/dp/B000EU1KTG/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1211531324&sr=1-3
Also, EMS Rehberg does some advertizing with Oldfield:
http://www.emsrehberg.de/_______v_i_p___s/_______v_i_p___s.html
Quote: |
Kraftwerk had two prototype vocoders that I know of, one built by Sennheiser (before the VSM201), and the other built by R. Barth KG (before the Musicoder). One of them was on eBay a year ago or so, but nsw.
|
I saw that Barth vocoder on ebay. Would be interesting to see the schemos of this.
JH.
Now playing: Tori Amos, American Doll Posse _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
robovoice
Joined: May 23, 2008 Posts: 48 Location: Denver
Audio files: 12
|
Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:13 am Post subject:
Re: Vocoders Subject description: Vocoder(s) used on... |
|
|
jhaible wrote: | robovoice wrote: |
Did "Five Miles Out" also use an EMS Vocoder? Because that's a Roland VP-330 Vocoder Plus MkI,
|
I'm not entirely sure about the the EMS on Five Miles Out.
But I think I remember the EMS 2000 from the "Live at Montreux 1981" DVD.
I guess I'll better double check this - so I have an excuse for watching this outstanding concert again.
http://www.amazon.de/Mike-Oldfield-Live-Montreux-1981/dp/B000EU1KTG/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1211531324&sr=1-3
Also, EMS Rehberg does some advertizing with Oldfield:
http://www.emsrehberg.de/_______v_i_p___s/_______v_i_p___s.html
Quote: |
Kraftwerk had two prototype vocoders that I know of, one built by Sennheiser (before the VSM201), and the other built by R. Barth KG (before the Musicoder). One of them was on eBay a year ago or so, but nsw.
|
I saw that Barth vocoder on ebay. Would be interesting to see the schemos of this.
JH.
Now playing: Tori Amos, American Doll Posse |
So that was the Barth Kraftwerk Vocoder on eBay a year or so ago, not the Sennheiser Kraftwerk Vocoder? I wonder if that was legit or a scam. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:39 am Post subject:
Re: Vocoders Subject description: Vocoder(s) used on... |
|
|
robovoice wrote: |
So that was the Barth Kraftwerk Vocoder on eBay a year or so ago, not the Sennheiser Kraftwerk Vocoder? I wonder if that was legit or a scam. |
I don't know - didn't know that only Kraftwerk had a Barth vocoder, either.
Actually, not exactly being the biggest Kraftwerk fan, I didn't know of any Barth vocoder until someone pointed me at that auction.
JH.
Now on the record player - guess what? - Oldfield, Five Miles Out. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
robovoice
Joined: May 23, 2008 Posts: 48 Location: Denver
Audio files: 12
|
Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:54 am Post subject:
Re: Vocoders Subject description: Vocoder(s) used on... |
|
|
jhaible wrote: | robovoice wrote: |
So that was the Barth Kraftwerk Vocoder on eBay a year or so ago, not the Sennheiser Kraftwerk Vocoder? I wonder if that was legit or a scam. |
I don't know - didn't know that only Kraftwerk had a Barth vocoder, either.
Actually, not exactly being the biggest Kraftwerk fan, I didn't know of any Barth vocoder until someone pointed me at that auction.
JH.
Now on the record player - guess what? - Oldfield, Five Miles Out. |
Does he use both an EMS and the Roland VP-330 Vocoder Plus MkI, or just the VP-330+ MkI? |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|