What "chipset" would you like to see in a Dim D PCB |
Original chips. They are still out there. |
|
76% |
[ 39 ] |
Low voltage BBDs - easier to get, probably more noisy. Takes longer to design. |
|
5% |
[ 3 ] |
Make a PCB that allows both options. Will be more expensive (more PCB area required!), and will take the longest to design. |
|
13% |
[ 7 ] |
Not interested. (Who needs a Dim D? And isn't there another Dim D project on the way?!) |
|
3% |
[ 2 ] |
|
Total Votes : 51 |
|
Author |
Message |
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 1:13 am Post subject:
Dim D |
|
|
If I'd make a PCB to emulate the Dim(ention) D, are you confident you can get the required chips (MN3007, MN3101, NE571 or equiv., 2x each)?
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
guitarfool
Joined: Feb 26, 2007 Posts: 160 Location: Maryland
Audio files: 8
|
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 7:13 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Yes. Smallbear sells all of them. If he has enough stock to handle the sudden demand |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 1113 Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
|
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 9:17 am Post subject:
|
|
|
The Dimension D board art is recoverable from the service manual documents. Or is it two-sided? I can't remember.
What I worry about, is that the transistors listed there do not have a single suffix, while the SH synths, TR808, etc. are -filled- with transistors of a highly specific nature- the 2SC945Q in the SH5 filter, the 2SC945P in the TR808... Has anyone taken a very good look at what is actually stuffed on the board?
Can you come up with a PCB that is smaller than the original? I'd definitely get one (already have the 3007s/3101s). Don't use the noisy chips..please.
Know that the Dimension D will add just the right amount of life to drum machine hihats, and is luscious on ballad guitars. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
mono-poly
Joined: Jul 07, 2004 Posts: 937 Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Audio files: 2
|
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 10:40 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Sounds cool.
What happend to the Dim T ? |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 11:12 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Peake wrote: |
Can you come up with a PCB that is smaller than the original? . |
Yes, absolutely.
I'm aiming at a board in my "standard" size (160mm * 100mm).
I'll probably place the two BBDs in opposite corners to keep them away from each other.
I'll omit the line driver / balanced input & output stuff unless all of you convince me you need it. Driving 600 Ohm loads is the exception nowadays, I think. I'll leave it 2 channel-in, 2 channel-out , of course.
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 11:20 am Post subject:
|
|
|
mono-poly wrote: | Sounds cool.
What happend to the Dim T ? |
Love it - still use it every day. When I run my CS-80 thru it, and then switch back to Dry, the CS-80 suddenly sounds weak. (Blasphemy, I know. )
It's not that almost static effect that the Dim D is, though. So I'm not entirely sure if there will be enough demand for it to make a full PCB run.
Right now, my Dim T consists of two partly populated Tau boards and a veroboard. It will be possible to build a similar configuration with one partly populated Dim D board (no BBDs then, of course) and two Tau boards, plus a little cross-wiring.
But my goal is to really make a Dim T on a board of its own. I just have to see if it'll work from an economic point of view.
Jh. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1
|
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 1:19 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
JH, you do know that Scott Stites offers a Dim C also? _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
v-un-v wrote: | JH, you do know that Scott Stites offers a Dim C also? |
Scott encouraged me to go for a Dim D clone when I asked him.
But then I decided to postpone it till June because I didn't want to interfere with a Dim D project from barclaycon on the prodigy-pro forum.
( http://www.prodigy-pro.com/forum/topic-21277.html&highlight=dimension )
I'm still not sure whether I should do it or not.
At the moment I'm just making preparation in order to be able to go when I'll get into the "Dim D mood" again.
I have to be in a certain mood, or state of high motivation, to do a specific project - then I can fly, and everything works almost on autopilot.
I've been in that mood for the Dim D some time ago, but I had promised barclaycon to wait until June, and so I put my focus on the Dim T idea, and then on the String Filter and Interpolating Scanner.
It's almost June, that other project on prodigy-pro seems uncertain, and I don't even know what to make of the reaction I got there recently.
Right now, I'm not in the Dim D mood - but I want to be ready to fly when it comes again. So I'm doing the preparatory homework right now.
Scott - what's the current state of your Dim C project?
Let me know if the situation for a Dim D is different than it was in January.
Do you still think it makes sense?
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
mono-poly
Joined: Jul 07, 2004 Posts: 937 Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Audio files: 2
|
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
That wasn't a real nice reply from him about treathing him. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1
|
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
jhaible wrote: |
Do you still think it makes sense?
|
Only if you think you have the time Jurgen.
I agree with everyone else. The Dim D is a classic bit of kit.
Frankly I'm also amazed by your professionalism and discipline to be able to offer so much is such small periods of time- and have a full time job too? _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
v-un-v wrote: | and have a full time job too? |
Not anymore.
(Been working part time - 4 days a week - for 2 months now.)
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 1113 Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
|
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
MN3007 for $5.00 each:
http://tubesandmore.com/
Doing a search gets you to it most easily. (They have it posted in the "transistor" section.) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 11:52 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Peake wrote: | MN3007 for $5.00 each:
http://tubesandmore.com/
Doing a search gets you to it most easily. (They have it posted in the "transistor" section.) |
Thanks Mike!
It could be a good idea to shop for these chips now.
I expect a similar situation as with the TDA1022's and the Triple Chorus (where in the end it turned out there _were_ enough chips, despite our initial fears), but you can never know.
The crucial chips are:
MN3007 (x2)
MN3101 (x2)
NE570 (x2) (or NE571, or SA570, or SA571)
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 1113 Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
|
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:21 am Post subject:
|
|
|
The folks on prodigy-pro will be duking it out with us for components, so it might be a touch rougher than with the triple chorus. IMO, the "D" might be a bit more universally revered/known than the other excellent projects you've been producing...
Still waiting for my prodigy-pro account to be activated. Sigh. Well, if I can't post there, then E-M'ers get the first go at these cheap 3007s!
BTW, I would vote for a balanced I/O option- it's nice to be able to keep things clean when chaining pro gear. Would it be too clumsy to have the ability to stuff that, but to also use it with today's oscillator levels? Yikes. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
norman phay
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 176 Location: North-East England
Audio files: 1
|
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:20 am Post subject:
|
|
|
I would also vote for a balanced option, if possible. A unit like this, I'd most likely operate on a send/return path, rather than as a through effect. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 1113 Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
|
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:25 am Post subject:
|
|
|
The stereo balanced out of your pro echo/reverb right into a D is a GOOD thing.
"You said 'swimmies'." -recpit member... |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 1113 Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
|
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:49 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Peake wrote: | What I worry about, is that the transistors listed there do not have a single suffix, while the SH synths, TR808, etc. are -filled- with transistors of a highly specific nature- the 2SC945Q in the SH5 filter, the 2SC945P in the TR808... Has anyone taken a very good look at what is actually stuffed on the board? |
If I'd earlier taken a look at the left side of the schemo, I would have found those highly specific Japanese trannies- 2SC732TM-GR, 2SK30ATM-GR, 2SC945P, 2SA733P, etc.
XOX cloners argue over the hfe and vendor variance of these specific trannies regarding "does it sound right", are 4148s REALLY like 1S2473s, etc....Will more readily available Euro trannies be able to replace them? I'd trust you to be one of those who could do it, if you haven't already done so. |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Norman Phay wrote: | I would also vote for a balanced option, if possible. A unit like this, I'd most likely operate on a send/return path, rather than as a through effect. |
Ok, I try to fit in balanced inputs/outputs.
But you don't need 600 Ohm drive capability, do you?
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Peake wrote: | Peake wrote: | What I worry about, is that the transistors listed there do not have a single suffix, while the SH synths, TR808, etc. are -filled- with transistors of a highly specific nature- the 2SC945Q in the SH5 filter, the 2SC945P in the TR808... Has anyone taken a very good look at what is actually stuffed on the board? |
If I'd earlier taken a look at the left side of the schemo, I would have found those highly specific Japanese trannies- 2SC732TM-GR, 2SK30ATM-GR, 2SC945P, 2SA733P, etc.
XOX cloners argue over the hfe and vendor variance of these specific trannies regarding "does it sound right", are 4148s REALLY like 1S2473s, etc....Will more readily available Euro trannies be able to replace them? I'd trust you to be one of those who could do it, if you haven't already done so. |
I think sometimes these details can be important, and sometimes they don't matter at all. There is always the possibility to overlook something, of course. But I feel confident that I know the difference in most cases.
The emitter followers in the Dim D have 100% feedback per design - you won't notice any difference with about any small signal transistor.
(In my earlier Dimension Clone, I omitted them completely, btw.)
In a ladder filter, the transistor's parameters can make a substantial difference.
If a part with a certain suffix is specified in a service manual, this just specifies which part has been used. It means, the circuit will work if you use the same part - it doesn't mean it won't work with a part of a different suffix. It may not - but more often, it will. We have to find out.
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Scott Stites
Janitor
Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
|
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
I cast my vote for the MN3007s. I can get a fairly decent input level on my Dim C with its MN3207s, but, to be honest, in later dalliances with the MN30XX devices, I found them to be much less of a hassle to getting a good synth signal level. It still irketh me that the latter day MN devices are exclusively the MN32XX devices. Of course, I think JH could coax a fascinating signal out of an overripe cantaloupe if he put his considerable talents to it.
A while back (couple of years at least) I put some effort into making plans to do a Dim D, but I found the particular amplifier ICs used in the thing were really, really hard to find (some of the trannies as well). I bought one IC in order to compare it to other devices, but never got around to it (I'd gladly donate it to the cause if so needed). I've always suspected there were very suitable replacements today that the Roland guys didn't have around at the time they designed the Dim D. Any thoughts on what you're going to use there, JH? _________________ My Site |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 1:02 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Scott Stites wrote: | It still irketh me that the latter day MN devices are exclusively the MN32XX devices. |
They probably have a process that only allows small voltages?
Modern silicon technology goes for small structures (more circuits per waver), which also means less maximum voltage. High voltage processes are still there, but they are a speciality that you pay for, and not every manufacuter has them.
Quote: | A while back (couple of years at least) I put some effort into making plans to do a Dim D, but I found the particular amplifier ICs used in the thing were really, really hard to find (some of the trannies as well). I bought one IC in order to compare it to other devices, but never got around to it (I'd gladly donate it to the cause if so needed). I've always suspected there were very suitable replacements today that the Roland guys didn't have around at the time they designed the Dim D. Any thoughts on what you're going to use there, JH? |
In my Dimension Clone from 2001 I used garden variety opamps, and never even thought about it. I still don't expect the opamp types -as long as the replacements are reasonably chosen - to make any difference here.
But I'll do two things:
(1) I'll check again if there's anything odd in the internal circuit of the opamps that were used in the original.
(2) I Consider providing SIL footprints and "ordinary" footprints on the board, so that he or she who thinks it might make a difference, can still hunt for the original opamps and solder them in.
(You could use sockets for the DIP parts, run the Dim D with them, and when you've found your holy grail, you can pull the DIP ICs and solder in the SIL parts.)
(3) If everyone has acess to "ordinary" SIL opamps (like the 4558, or the more common JFET opamps), I couls go straigt for SIL ...
(4) A combination of SIL and SOIC footprints might be an alternative as well.
JH.
PS.: Sorry for all the typos - gotta run ... _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 1113 Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
|
Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:14 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Boy did I speak too soon- eBay has gone nuts with cheap 3007s! There are tubes of 20 for $25.00, etc. Here's an example, $3.00 for two.
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
|
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:07 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Peake wrote: | Boy did I speak too soon- eBay has gone nuts with cheap 3007s! There are tubes of 20 for $25.00, etc. Here's an example, $3.00 for two.
|
Good to see the good deals are still out there!
There has been a similar auction smome months ago (which also encouraged me to consider using 3007s rather than anything inferior.)
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
loopcycle
Joined: Nov 06, 2006 Posts: 101 Location: California
|
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:27 am Post subject:
|
|
|
thanks for that tip, mike. ive now picked up my mn3007 and mn3101 for this project already. =) |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Scott Stites
Janitor
Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
|
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:39 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Quote: | In my Dimension Clone from 2001 I used garden variety opamps, and never even thought about it. I still don't expect the opamp types -as long as the replacements are reasonably chosen - to make any difference here. |
That makes sense to me. I wasn't really sure if those specific parts really had anything to do with anything - I'd say if the parts you chose in your clone worked out well, then that's that. I couldn't see anything paricularly special about those parts when comparing them to the plethora of op amps that are available these days.
Cheers,
Scott _________________ My Site |
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|