electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Articles  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links  |  Store
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
Live streaming at radio.electro-music.com

  host / artist show at your time
  PHOBoS presents Sim Biosys (EM mix)
  PHOBoS Tales of the Golden Teacher
  PHOBoS presents Music by HrastProgrammer (feat. Terence McKenna)
  Faux Pas Quartet and friends Music From Last Thursday
Please visit the chat
 Forum index » News... » Apple Computers
Macporn Pro! 8-core
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 2 of 3 [60 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Author Message
Jyoti



Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 618
Location: Derby, UK
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In terms of feel, here's my sequencer ranking:

TR-808
MC-202
Machine Drum
Monomachine
JX-3P
Numerology on my Macbook Pro
Atari 520STFM using Sequencer One and FSKed to 688
MPC 2500
Renoise on my MB Pro
QY-700
Digital Performer on my Mac Pro
Triton Extreme
Abusive drummer after eleven cans of Red Stripe
Logic Studio on my Mac Pro

These are all things that I've used for more than one track / a short while. There are others, of course, but I haven't used them enough to comment.

_________________
My music: here!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Blue Hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20517
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 147
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What the ... sorry, I'm a non sequencer person, so probably any explanation will be beyond me but ... hell, what is a sequencer feel, I mean they're all dead Shocked Embarassed erm I well ... I mean they go boom ta ta all the time ... erm I should say no more I guess Laughing

Ok, I'm safe, behind the chair .. I hope ... let it come ...

_________________
Jan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21977
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Some stuff I like:
Early Roland MCs
The Roland CSQs.
The PPG Waveterm
Various analog sequencers like the Q119, but it´s always more fun to use those for the "other" stuff though.
Logic

Hmm...
Numerology is very cool.

The shit inside the NM-1 is cool too. Very Happy

_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21977
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:

Ok, I'm safe, behind the chair .. I hope ... let it come ...


You might consider to start worrying about stray ice cream trucks? Shocked

_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Blue Hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20517
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 147
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Blue Hell wrote:

Ok, I'm safe, behind the chair .. I hope ... let it come ...


You might consider to start worrying about stray ice cream trucks? Shocked


No problem, the chair will take care of that Cool Shocked

No problem I'm several truck heights above street level Cool Shocked

No choppers ... please Question

_________________
Jan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21977
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.stopabductions.com/
_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Blue Hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20517
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 147
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Only two failures from standard thought screen helmets have been reported since 1998 for people being abducted by aliens themselves.


Not exactly fool proof is it ... now tell me more about your sequencer feel please?

_________________
Jan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21977
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sequencer feel? I dunno.. Main point is that I manage to use the damned gear for making the music I want to make. Logic is just fine. It can be used for the Arrick modular as well.. and I can even use audio as trig clicks off the RME. Sequencer feel? I really don´t know if I know what that means.
_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jyoti



Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 618
Location: Derby, UK
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
now tell me more about your sequencer feel please?


Here's my test:

Program a simple pattern into my Machine Drum, using its internal sounds -> listen to it -> makes my mrs. want to shake her bum, makes me groove.

Program exactly the same pattern into Logic and then trigger the Machine Drum from Logic, again using its internal sounds -> listen to it -> no grooving from me, no dancing from my mrs.

I'm using an AMT-8 which, pre the Apple buy-out, would come up with a little thingy in Logic saying that MIDI timestamping was on. That's now disappeared.... Confused

Sooo... I now use my Elektron gear and occasionally my MPC to sequence my external gear.

Please bear in mind all the above is entirely subjective and un-scientific. But then, I'm a musician, not a scientist. So I generally go with, if it sounds better, it is better.

(I added that last paragraph from spending too much time on photography forums with blokes endlessly arguing about MTFs rather than actually taking pictures. Cool )

_________________
My music: here!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jyoti



Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 618
Location: Derby, UK
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

Numerology is very cool.


Yep! Very, very deep, though! Not my go-to 'let's bash something out' sequencer. Very Happy

I want one of these babies now:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

But they've just stopped making them... my gearlust is thwarted! Sad

_________________
My music: here!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Blue Hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20517
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 147
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jyoti wrote:
Please bear in mind all the above is entirely subjective and un-scientific. But then, I'm a musician, not a scientist. So I generally go with, if it sounds better, it is better.

(I added that last paragraph from spending too much time on photography forums with blokes endlessly arguing about MTFs rather than actually taking pictures. Cool )


I'll bear in mind and the bum argument is pretty strong.

Still it surprises me a bit that a thing that should just do what you tell it to do has so much variability .. but as I said before I'm not a sequencer type really .. I mostly make self playing patches and mostly a sequencer will start to bore me within the time it takes to complete such a thing, so I don't spend much time on it really. I know of others who do lovely stuff with it though (& of course of course).

_________________
Jan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21977
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The example above is basically about choosing different sound sources?
If these are step sequences then both Logic and that other thing should perform the same.
As for groove and feel, the sound source is where it´s at.

_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jyoti



Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 618
Location: Derby, UK
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
The example above is basically about choosing different sound sources?


Nope, playing the same sounds (the internal Machine Drum sounds) both times.

Quote:
If these are step sequences then both Logic and that other thing should perform the same.


Not to my ears. You could argue that it's an unfair test as the signal flow in the Machine Drum is:

sequencer -> sounds

whereas in Logic it's:

sequencer -> Core MIDI -> USB -> USB lead -> AMT-8 -> MIDI lead -> Machine Drum MIDI interface -> sounds.

But that's kind of the point. And my dislike of Logic's timing is multiplied the more tracks running concurrently. With a song with 20+ concurrent sequences, it's all over the shop.

Again, this is just my opinion! Not scientific! Please don't hit me! Shocked

But in case you think I'm being completely mental, I have company. If you look at the bottom of this page, here's another feller who likes Elektron's timing:

http://www.elektron.se/extras/?sPage=stories&iId=2&iSubId=1

Although I disagree that it's worse than an Atari. Very Happy

_________________
My music: here!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jyoti



Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 618
Location: Derby, UK
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
I'll bear in mind and the bum argument is pretty strong.


Here's exactly how the awful truth was revealed to me...

2005: I'm preparing some versions of album tracks to gig at Cosy Den in Gothenburg. My mrs. comes into the studio while I'm finishing the verse pattern to a song on my Monomachine...

(mrs.) "Oooh, this is good." (starts dancing)
(me) "Naah, it's a simplified version, this is the proper version." (hit play on Logic, as I've been playing the recorded version in the background while copying it.)
(mrs.) "Hmmm... no."
(me) "What do you mean, 'no?'"
(mrs.) "This one doesn't make me want to dance - play the other one again."
(I hit play on the Monomachine)
(mrs. starts dancing again) "The other one sounds like one of those funny MIDI file versions of songs you used to play me!"
(so I stop the Mono, mute tracks in Logic so it's similar to the Monomachine and then start it playing again.)
(mrs.) "Naah, still not as good... "(wanders out of studio.)

Then I thought, oh my god - she's right!

I'd been grooving to the Monomachine and the proper recorded version didn't have the groove.

So... cue at least a year of comparing timings, re-recording beats, lining up audio... it drove me bloody mad!

I've given all that up now. I just use what feels good and makes me want to shake my arse.

The arse knows best.

And I say 'awful truth' because it would be far, far, FAR easier if I could just sequence in Logic. It's quick, simple, flexible. Great for arranging a song.

But... I want a great feel too.

I know posts like these can really offend people so I just want to say, again, if you love Logic or any other DAW sequencer, that's fine, great. Use whatever makes you happy. I may be mental, just ignore me! Very Happy

_________________
My music: here!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21977
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Drum stuff?

Listen, if the same step pattern sounds more groovy off the Monomachine, wouldn´t that simply means that the MM adds some shuffle of some sort, and Logic does not?

As for massively sequenced stuff off Logic ( which I´m not really doing so I wouldn´t know anyways ), wouldn´t many of the guys using Logic for "orchestral" film scores have been on their asses and out of work if Logic had had serious probs? I dunno.

But, way back I often found that seriously MIDI sequenced stuff often lacks in the timing department due to different and at times not very suitable attacks in the sounds used. For some reason this has generally improved a lot with modern DAWs. People are probably not on recording everything to a stereo audio track off umpteen tracks of midi anymore.

_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jyoti



Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 618
Location: Derby, UK
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Drum stuff?

Listen, if the same step pattern sounds more groovy off the Monomachine, wouldn´t that simply means that the MM adds some shuffle of some sort, and Logic does not?


No, not groove. Like the bloke out of Autechre, I don't find Logic to be tight enough. It feels sloppy to me. It feels more out-of-time than MPCs and anything Elektron.

Quote:
As for massively sequenced stuff off Logic ( which I´m not really doing so I wouldn´t know anyways ), wouldn´t many of the guys using Logic for "orchestral" film scores have been on their asses and out of work if Logic had had serious probs? I dunno.


Oh, Logic is fine for any non-crucial timing: strings, pads, maybe even non-funky piano. I just personally don't like it for bass or drums.

Quote:
But, way back I often found that seriously MIDI sequenced stuff often lacks in the timing department due to different and at times not very suitable attacks in the sounds used.


Yeah, I remember an article around '83 or so, I think it was in Electronic Soundmaker. Depeche Mode were unhappy with MIDI timing so they used an oscilloscope to measure the timing of various bits of MIDI versus analogue kit. In the end, their TR-808 was the tightest so they used that to trigger everything!

Quote:
For some reason this has generally improved a lot with modern DAWs. People are probably not on recording everything to a stereo audio track off umpteen tracks of midi anymore.


Ironically, this is almost what I do do now. I sequence externally and then record into Logic, big tape recorder style. Very Happy

_________________
My music: here!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Blue Hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20517
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 147
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jyoti wrote:
I don't find Logic to be tight enough. It feels sloppy to me. It feels more out-of-time than MPCs and anything Elektron.


That gives the thing a name at least Wink . Still it's amazing that today's computers don't reserve a tiny bit of their resources for proper timing ... but indeed, they don't.

_________________
Jan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kassen
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The computers are fine. Mostly it's the OS's that are at fault.


At least OSX is good for other things, like.... Well, I can't think of anything right now but I'm sure it's good for something.

_________________
Kassen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21977
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So how much jitter is really needed to make a plain beat fall apart?

Unless there are some midi data going wild somewhere, a modern DAW on say OS X should handle this just fine. I´d say it´s time for a serious bug hunt. The fact that I´m not at all bothered with jitter in Logic Studio suggests that this is probably not a common problem.

_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jyoti



Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 618
Location: Derby, UK
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
The computers are fine. Mostly it's the OS's that are at fault.


Exactly! I swear the timing of Logic 5.x and 6.x on my old G4 was tighter than it is now, on my stupidly fast eight-core machine. I wish I'd never upgraded... I was seduced by the promise of faster this and extra that.

Mind you, I could see parameters for MIDI timestamping back in OS9, in Logic's MIDI interface preferences tab. Like I said, that's mysteriously disappeared now... Confused

Quote:
At least OSX is good for other things, like.... Well, I can't think of anything right now but I'm sure it's good for something.


The audio sync is fine (so far) but I'm guessing that's because it's a higher priority both within Logic and OSX / Core Audio. And, as fewer and fewer musicians use externally-sequenced instruments, I'm also guessing MIDI timing will become even less important. Sad

_________________
My music: here!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jyoti



Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 618
Location: Derby, UK
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
The computers are fine. Mostly it's the OS's that are at fault.


And another point - Renoise is way tighter than Logic on exactly the same machine. How?? Mad

_________________
My music: here!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jyoti



Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 618
Location: Derby, UK
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:

That gives the thing a name at least Wink . Still it's amazing that today's computers don't reserve a tiny bit of their resources for proper timing ... but indeed, they don't.


Bear in mind, this is just what a few nutters like me think. I'm sure Apple could pull out timing graphs and plenty of data to show that Logic has better timing than anything ever built.

As with every bit of musical kit, it's subjective experience. Some people love Micro Korgs, some hate them. Neither is wrong or right, however much they argue about oscillator models or whatnot.

I'm perfectly willing to accept that all my timing issues could be fantasy. However, if I prefer sequencing on Elektrons and MPCs, I can't force myself to un-prefer it, to like a feel I don't like in Logic.

So, I'm not on a MIDI slop / timing crusade, peeps should use whatever makes them happy and whatever makes them dance. Cool

_________________
My music: here!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jyoti



Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 618
Location: Derby, UK
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
So how much jitter is really needed to make a plain beat fall apart?


Oooh, now this would be a great circuit / plugin to build: something that progressively introduces random timing fluctuations till everything is fubar. And imagine if you could automate it so every bar went from tight to chaos or vice versa?

Put me down for one! Very Happy

_________________
My music: here!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kassen
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jyoti wrote:

Exactly! I swear the timing of Logic 5.x and 6.x on my old G4 was tighter than it is now, on my stupidly fast eight-core machine. I wish I'd never upgraded... I was seduced by the promise of faster this and extra that.


Yeah, multi-tasking sounds like a pritty good idea.... except that multi-tasking for timing critical applications is insanely hard.

The idea of Unix (amongst which BSD and hence Darwin and so OSX) is to make sure all users (and processes) get their share of the cpu every once in a while... and that's at direct odds with realtime performance for a single process.

The one thing you could do is petition Apple for a realtime kernel like Linux has.

_________________
Kassen

Last edited by Kassen on Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:18 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Kassen
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jyoti wrote:

And another point - Renoise is way tighter than Logic on exactly the same machine. How?? Mad


Renoise is on OSX as well now? Wow.

I have no idea how they do it but those Renoise people are quite hardcore and trackers have a rich history of being optimised the living daylight out of. Logic on the other hand is by Apple and Apple makes it's money selling larger and larger computers; they'd be stupid to optimise. If they'd optimise you'd still be on your G4 and where's the money in that?

Have you ever seen those graphs showing aliasing in time-stretch algorithems comparing -amongst other platforms- "serious pro DAW" Logic and "Relic of a bygone era" Renoise? Hint; it's not pretty,

_________________
Kassen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 2 of 3 [60 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » News... » Apple Computers
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
e-m mkii

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from
our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use