If I'd make a string chorus PCB, what kind of multi-BBD circuit would you prefer? |
Solina style (also: Crumar Performer, Böhm Phasing Rotor, and others) |
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62% |
[ 28 ] |
ARP Omni style |
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13% |
[ 6 ] |
Elka Synthex 4 BBD circuit |
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11% |
[ 5 ] |
other (please name in thread) |
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6% |
[ 3 ] |
I would want neither - it's old fashioned and overused, and if I need it, there are digital FX boxes |
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6% |
[ 3 ] |
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Total Votes : 45 |
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austrohungaro
Joined: Dec 23, 2006 Posts: 42 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
Audio files: 1
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject:
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Everything's OK now
My Triple Chorus works and sounds fine!
Vielen Dank! |
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austrohungaro
Joined: Dec 23, 2006 Posts: 42 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
Audio files: 1
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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject:
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Picture and soundclip of my Triple Chorus, still unlabeled.
I used my soviet Solaris synth as input.
It's an electronic organ from the 80s, some kind of string machine without the BBD, so I wanted the Triple Chorus to have that beautiful sound.
1. - Dry output
2. - Main output, EQ Mode
3. - Linear Mode
4. - EQ Mode again, playing with the knobs
5. - Fades out in 12k Mode
Then, stereo mode (left: 1st BBD, right: 3rd BBD)
1. - EQ Mode (my favourite: mids up)
2. - Linear Mode
Finally, the input is my SoundLab
Is it normal that EQ Mode sounds louder than Linear or 12k?
And that low noise on output (even without anything in)?
I am so happy! Thanks Jürgen!
By the way, my Tau PCB arrived yesterday!
Description: |
Triple Chorus finished, but unlabeled |
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Filesize: |
3.38 MB |
Viewed: |
414 Time(s) |
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge. |
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Description: |
Triple Chorus demo: Solaris synth in. First dry, then on... EQ Mode, Linear Mode, EQ Mode again playing with knobs... Then stereo, EQ Mode, Linear Mode... And finally some noise from a SoundLab. |
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Download |
Filename: |
JH_Triple_Chorus_Demo.mp3 |
Filesize: |
1.56 MB |
Downloaded: |
986 Time(s) |
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norman phay
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 176 Location: North-East England
Audio files: 1
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:06 am Post subject:
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OK, I've got a problem! Something to do w/grounding, I think, it's got me stumped anyway.
I had the board working fine on the bench, sounds good, everything seems to do as it should, so I bought an eddystone case as per the guy upthread, and drilled it out.
First problem was that when I put it altogether, it popped the board fuse. I quicly sussed that I'd hooked up the power cables back to front, works fine on the bench, shorts the 2 connectors together via the case body - pop!
I corrected this, and note the following.
If I attach the power connector to the case body,I get a loud 50 cycle hum through the output jacks.
If I run the power cable out thru the back of the box without bolting the socket into the hole I drilled, it works fine, but there's a loud "pop" noise when I throw either the wet/dry switch or the modulation off/on switch
The input potentiometer doesn't work, although when I test it for continuity, it seems to be OK. If I attach a jack socket to the input without a pot in line, it works fine.
Any suggestions, please? |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:17 am Post subject:
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Norman Phay wrote: | OK, I've got a problem! Something to do w/grounding, I think, it's got me stumped anyway.
I had the board working fine on the bench, sounds good, everything seems to do as it should, so I bought an eddystone case as per the guy upthread, and drilled it out.
First problem was that when I put it altogether, it popped the board fuse. I quicly sussed that I'd hooked up the power cables back to front, works fine on the bench, shorts the 2 connectors together via the case body - pop!
I corrected this, and note the following.
If I attach the power connector to the case body,I get a loud 50 cycle hum through the output jacks.
If I run the power cable out thru the back of the box without bolting the socket into the hole I drilled, it works fine, but there's a loud "pop" noise when I throw either the wet/dry switch or the modulation off/on switch
The input potentiometer doesn't work, although when I test it for continuity, it seems to be OK. If I attach a jack socket to the input without a pot in line, it works fine.
Any suggestions, please? |
Asuming you're using AC power and the on-board rectifier and regulator:
You have to make sure that the AC is completely *floating*, i.e. not connected to signal GND, your (metal) enclosure, or Earth GND on one side.
With a metal enclosure, this means you have to use an *insulated* jack for connecting the wallwart.
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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norman phay
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 176 Location: North-East England
Audio files: 1
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:31 am Post subject:
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Yes, I'm using an AC wallwart, w/the on-board regulators. Thanks for the prompt reply! I'll get onto it tonight. |
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alain6870
Joined: Apr 04, 2008 Posts: 17 Location: France
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:50 am Post subject:
Triple chorus board tuning Subject description: frequencies of the modulators? |
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Hello everybody,
I've just finished my Triple chorus board and everything's working fine, but I can't really figure out what frequency for my modulators would give best results. It is indeed very difficult by ear. Has anyone ever measured the frequencies or the period and could give me some hints?
72 ms for vib is a good start (sounds good and the amplitude of my mods are identical)
500 ms for chorus seems close to the solina modulator.
thank you very much |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:14 am Post subject:
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Triple Chorus Boards are sold out!
Thanks to all who bought one - it's been a pleasure for me.
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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Electronicant
Joined: Feb 23, 2006 Posts: 81 Location: North
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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject:
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jhaible wrote: | I just made a short demo of the Boehm Phasing Rotor 78, in Ensemble mode, which is an emulation of the Solina chorus as far as I can tell.
First two chords are dry:
I played the Korg Lambda with all its oscillators in sync (i.e. without the lush modulation that's normally typical for Lambda strings), to have a fairly dry and sterile input signal.
Next two chords are with the Boehm switched on. (Is this close enough to Solina?)
The rest is Lambda -> Schulte Compact A clone -> Boehm
A tad of reverb on everything.
JH. |
Jürgen, could you please post this demo again. The link does´nt work for me. Thanks. |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject:
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Electronicant wrote: | jhaible wrote: | I just made a short demo of the Boehm Phasing Rotor 78, in Ensemble mode, which is an emulation of the Solina chorus as far as I can tell.
First two chords are dry:
I played the Korg Lambda with all its oscillators in sync (i.e. without the lush modulation that's normally typical for Lambda strings), to have a fairly dry and sterile input signal.
Next two chords are with the Boehm switched on. (Is this close enough to Solina?)
The rest is Lambda -> Schulte Compact A clone -> Boehm
A tad of reverb on everything.
JH. |
Jürgen, could you please post this demo again. The link does´nt work for me. Thanks. |
I'd have to search for these ... don't even know if I've kept them ...
But let me just say it again: This project is finished - no more boards available anymore!
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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gavgomad
Joined: Jan 29, 2006 Posts: 69 Location: Canada
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:24 am Post subject:
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OK, I'm about to betray my lack of theoretical knowledge here with a stupid question....
In the EQ section, is there any way to modify the circuit to use 50k linear pots instead of the 10k linears on the schematic?
I'm not trying to be cheap here, but I purchased a good dose of Precision sealed cermet 50ks awhile ago, and the particular design is no longer in production. I'd like to avoid multiple "feels" on my panel, and only have 2x 10k linears - not likely to find more....
Stupid I know, but I ask anyway....
Gav. |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject:
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gavgomad wrote: | OK, I'm about to betray my lack of theoretical knowledge here with a stupid question....
In the EQ section, is there any way to modify the circuit to use 50k linear pots instead of the 10k linears on the schematic?
I'm not trying to be cheap here, but I purchased a good dose of Precision sealed cermet 50ks awhile ago, and the particular design is no longer in production. I'd like to avoid multiple "feels" on my panel, and only have 2x 10k linears - not likely to find more....
Stupid I know, but I ask anyway....
Gav. |
It's possible to get the very same results with 50k pots, but that means changing a *lot* of othe rcomponent values. *Every* resistor in the EQ section would have to be increased times 5, and every capacitor value divided by 5. Possible, but nor recommended.
You could try the following: simply use 50k pots instead of 10ks, but solder a 13k resistor from cw ent to ccw end of each 50k pot.
The response of the pots would be slightly different, but the mid position and both end positions should be the same.
Try it, and let us know if it works out.
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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Serenadi
Joined: Jul 03, 2007 Posts: 89 Location: Germany
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:03 am Post subject:
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paologatto wrote: | The only problem I had (but I must investigate further and make more tests) is that sometimes 1 or 2 stages of the BBDs did not start to work. |
Same problem here, but even worse.
Hi Jürgen,
Finally, I got the time to build my first JH Project.
I populated the Solina Board and tested it step by step.
The filters and the LFOs work great.
I assumed the Clocks to be fine, my scope showed a high frequency signal on all outputs of the 4011.
Then I dropped the TDAs in, switched to their outputs and heard - nothing.
I also scope'd the outputs (pins 8/12) of the TDAs.
Damned, should I have bought all fakeware?
I had one NOS TDA from the 80's lying around, so I dropped it in.
Same result.
After a short break, half an hour perhaps, I switched the power on again.
And I heard a modulated Signal!!!
But only from the old TDA - the new ones were dead yet.
So I started to measure.
The supply voltages are as follows:
The old TDA (functional): -13,9V (pin9), -13,2V (pin13)
The new TDAs (not functional): -10,6V (pin9), -10,0V (pin13)
(powered by an regulated supply via the Dotcom connector, -15V always constant).
I scope'd the clock-signals and realised that something must be wrong with it.
The clock which drives the functional TDA is nearly squared between 0V and -15V.
The frequency lies between 186kHz and 280kHz, depending on the waveform pot.
The other two clocks of the non-functional TDAs were nearly sinus waves, between -4V and -8V (??) and their frequencies were so high, my DVM cannot measure and shows nothing.
(the scope does well, but I was too lazy to calculate the frequency, sorry).
Even if I pulled one of the TDAs, the clock behaviour was bad like above.
I swapped the TDAs and the 4011 in all positions, without any change.
If I switch off the board and on again, the old TDA stops working (and shows the same bad clock behaviour and the same bad supply voltages as the other ones). I have to wait another half an hour to get it working.
The new TDAs I got never working.
The 4011 are labeled HEF4011BP (Philips, from Reichelt), the TDAs are labeled TDA1022P.
I think the instability of the clocks are the problem, I don't hope the TDAs are bad.
Do you have any idea?
Thanks for your support.
Bernd |
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gavgomad
Joined: Jan 29, 2006 Posts: 69 Location: Canada
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:42 am Post subject:
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jhaible wrote: | You could try the following: simply use 50k pots instead of 10ks, but solder a 13k resistor from cw ent to ccw end of each 50k pot.
The response of the pots would be slightly different, but the mid position and both end positions should be the same.
Try it, and let us know if it works out.
JH. |
Hi JH!
Thanks for going easy on me....
Will definitely keep all posted. Just in "parts ordering" stage at the moment, though....
Thanks again for the tip! Worse comes to worse, I'll dig up another sealed cermet type and hope for a similar feel!
Gav. |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject:
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Serenadi wrote: | paologatto wrote: | The only problem I had (but I must investigate further and make more tests) is that sometimes 1 or 2 stages of the BBDs did not start to work. |
Same problem here, but even worse.
Hi Jürgen,
Finally, I got the time to build my first JH Project.
I populated the Solina Board and tested it step by step.
The filters and the LFOs work great.
I assumed the Clocks to be fine, my scope showed a high frequency signal on all outputs of the 4011.
Then I dropped the TDAs in, switched to their outputs and heard - nothing.
I also scope'd the outputs (pins 8/12) of the TDAs.
Damned, should I have bought all fakeware?
I had one NOS TDA from the 80's lying around, so I dropped it in.
Same result.
After a short break, half an hour perhaps, I switched the power on again.
And I heard a modulated Signal!!!
But only from the old TDA - the new ones were dead yet.
So I started to measure.
The supply voltages are as follows:
The old TDA (functional): -13,9V (pin9), -13,2V (pin13)
The new TDAs (not functional): -10,6V (pin9), -10,0V (pin13)
(powered by an regulated supply via the Dotcom connector, -15V always constant).
I scope'd the clock-signals and realised that something must be wrong with it.
The clock which drives the functional TDA is nearly squared between 0V and -15V.
The frequency lies between 186kHz and 280kHz, depending on the waveform pot.
The other two clocks of the non-functional TDAs were nearly sinus waves, between -4V and -8V (??) and their frequencies were so high, my DVM cannot measure and shows nothing.
(the scope does well, but I was too lazy to calculate the frequency, sorry).
Even if I pulled one of the TDAs, the clock behaviour was bad like above.
I swapped the TDAs and the 4011 in all positions, without any change.
If I switch off the board and on again, the old TDA stops working (and shows the same bad clock behaviour and the same bad supply voltages as the other ones). I have to wait another half an hour to get it working.
The new TDAs I got never working.
The 4011 are labeled HEF4011BP (Philips, from Reichelt), the TDAs are labeled TDA1022P.
I think the instability of the clocks are the problem, I don't hope the TDAs are bad.
Do you have any idea?
Thanks for your support.
Bernd |
Hi Bernd,
that's a hard one.
Just to make sure, I checked which brand of 4011s I have in my prototype, and it's HEF4011s, too.
Just to make sure I understood you right:
All three clocks work, on every power-on, as long as no TDAs are inserted?
When the TDAs are inserted, and have one channel working and another with that strange HF sine instead of rectangular clock (forget the 3rd one for a while), and you're swapping *both* 4011 and TDA, does the fault move with the chips, or does it stay at the same PCB locatuion?
Similarly, when you only swaw the 4011 and leave the TDAs where they were, does the problem move with the 4011 or stay with the TDA?
And if you swap the TDA and leave the 4011 in place, does the fault wander or stay?
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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Serenadi
Joined: Jul 03, 2007 Posts: 89 Location: Germany
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject:
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Hi Jürgen,
no, situation is as follows:
When no TDA is inserted, all 4011 produce this weired frequency.
With the TDAs inserted, it' the same.
The exeption is the old TDA only, *sometimes* it's working, in this case, the clock is ok.
If this one is not working - after switching off and on again - the clock is weired and the supply voltage of the TDA is low.
The new TDAs are never working - and so the clock is always strange and the supply voltages too.
This is independent of the position of all 4011 or TDAs. |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject:
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Serenadi wrote: | Hi Jürgen,
no, situation is as follows:
When no TDA is inserted, all 4011 produce this weired frequency.
With the TDAs inserted, it' the same.
The exeption is the old TDA only, *sometimes* it's working, in this case, the clock is ok.
If this one is not working - after switching off and on again - the clock is weired and the supply voltage of the TDA is low.
The new TDAs are never working - and so the clock is always strange and the supply voltages too.
This is independent of the position of all 4011 or TDAs. |
This sounds almost as if the clock driver needs a minimum amount of load capacitance to start working, and the new TDAs are "better" in terms of having less input capacitance, which curiously turn into a disadvantage with that specific clock circuit.
This is just an idea & speculation, it may be wrong, but it cannot hurt to try it:
Without a TDA in the socket, try connecting small capacitors from the clock pins to GND (same capacitance value on both pins). Start with 100pF, try 220p and so on, and see where the clock starts to become normal. (Don't try anything larger than 1nF)
If this works, put the TDA back in, and add a small cap to GND in parallel with each clock input.
This is the stangest thing I've heard in a long time - by all means keep me updated on this!
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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Serenadi
Joined: Jul 03, 2007 Posts: 89 Location: Germany
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:37 am Post subject:
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jhaible wrote: | This is the stangest thing I've heard in a long time - by all means keep me updated on this! |
For sure.
Hi Jürgen,
Two good news.
1 - my batch of new TDAs is working.
No fake, what makes me very happy.
And it'll make two other members from the forum happy too, 'cause they bought from the same batch.
2 - Finally, the whole thing is running (for now, I'll keep it under test).
What makes me very happy too, of course!
Thanks again for your help and suggestion.
It wasn't the solution yet, but it kept me playing around with capacitances.
First, I tried your suggestion and it seemed close to be ok.
I did that test, placing caps in the empty TDA socket and for the first time, the clock was running.
But it still lacks when switching off and on again.
So I tried several values from 100pF to 1nF, but without any change.
Even with the caps soldered and the TDAs plugged in, it doesn't work.
The HF wasn't there after all, but the outputs of the 4011 stayed constant - on low, one high.
Btw, 1nF was really too much, it changes the slew rate from the rectangular signal, so that it doesn't fit the specs in the datasheet of the TDA.
So I played around.
I tried to place a cap (18pF) between the outputs of the 4011 - as shown in the clock generator in the Valvo datasheet - without success.
Then I thought to make the clock a little asymmetric by changing one of the 120k resistors.
At the moment, I tried to hold a large resistor to the pins of the 120k, the clock started.
I realized, that only touching the pins 1/2 of the 4011 with a needle hold in my fingers, forces the clock to start.
Then I placed a cap (150pF) from pin 1/2 to ground.
It worked, but the pulse width of the clock changed to nearly 80%.
Finally, I reduced the caps value to 33pF and 'til now, everything's funny.
The pulse width is 50% and all clocks start at every power on.
Next is to connect this experimental buildup to my modular, to see whats about the levels (I *think* I have to amplify the output) and which pots are useful to me (after all I heard at the workdesk, the sweet spot is hard to find, so I think, I don't implement the speed trimmers as pots, as I first intended).
Thanks again and have a nice weekend.
Bernd
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:58 am Post subject:
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Serenadi wrote: |
Then I placed a cap [...] from pin 1/2 to ground.
[...] value to 33pF and 'til now, everything's funny.
The pulse width is 50% and all clocks start at every power on.
Thanks again and have a nice weekend.
Bernd
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Thank you for improoving the circuit by introducing, and optimizing, a slight unsymmetry in, and/or kick-start device for these oscillators!
I hope I have summarized the end result in the abbreviated quote above, so others who run into a similar problem can try it as well!
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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Serenadi
Joined: Jul 03, 2007 Posts: 89 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:11 am Post subject:
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jhaible wrote: | I hope I have summarized the end result in the abbreviated quote above, so others who run into a similar problem can try it as well! |
I think so, yes.
And it's easy to make: place the 33pF cap just between pin 1 and pin 16 of the 4011 on solderside.
Pin 16 is ground. And do it for all of the three 4011.
The solina chorus now is running 2 days at my modular without any problems.
It's a great module.
But it's like a drug. Once used, you miss something if you don't use it.
Btw, in your "Connecting Switches and Pots" - document, the three EQ-pots are labeled with a "cw".
I think this means "clockwise", but it has to be "ccw".
And another one:
I *think*, you mentioned anywhere in this thread a supply current of 120mA.
I measured also and my module needs just 47mA!
Also, to expand the sound capabilities, I fitted the module with an feedback pot.
This makes the sound something electronic, a bit like a high resonant flanger.
Very swirly sound.
Not useful for classic string sounds, but maybe usefull in a modular context.
Bernd Last edited by Serenadi on Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ericcoleridge
Joined: Jan 16, 2007 Posts: 889 Location: NYC
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Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject:
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Dear Jurgen,
Will this Triple Chorus board ever be offered again?
There were just so many boards, Haible and otherwise, being offered in a relatively short time span, that I missed out on it--even though I was intending on picking one up.
I'm curious, is this "élkorus" module, just featured on matrixsynth, based on your Triple Chorus circuit?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h3klms6FJw |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007 Posts: 2014 Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject:
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ericcoleridge wrote: | Dear Jurgen,
Will this Triple Chorus board ever be offered again?
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Never say no.
I didn't expect demand for a second Tau run either.
I doubt it, because it has several features that aren't provided on my boards. like the 180deg switch and the EQ-ing of individual delay lines.
Also, at first I thought the name Sergio Koval would ring a bell, but I didn't find him in my customer list.
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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Spratty
Joined: Oct 08, 2007 Posts: 43 Location: Australia
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Serenadi
Joined: Jul 03, 2007 Posts: 89 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:15 am Post subject:
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Spratty wrote: | I'm pondering if it's worthwhile just using pots for those two (fast + slow mod?). Further, does anyone think that it is worthwhile having a pot for the waveform? |
I've played around with the board in a prototype module, with all three pots mounted, to find out if it's worth (for me) to put pots on the final faceplate.
I would say no.
The goal of the module is imho a choruseffect without perceiving a huge amount of lfo movement.
This sweet spot will be reached only by setting the speed pots and the waveform pot very carefully.
Also, the range of the speed pots isn't that huge.
So, I decided to leave them as trimpots on the board.
Just my2cents. |
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jeffery girlsbottom
Joined: Jun 22, 2008 Posts: 27 Location: OZ
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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:28 am Post subject:
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i would very much like to have a few of these. |
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jeffery girlsbottom
Joined: Jun 22, 2008 Posts: 27 Location: OZ
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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:19 am Post subject:
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please make another run|! |
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