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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Modular Synthesis
Duophony?
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popsicko



Joined: Nov 05, 2007
Posts: 59
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:05 pm    Post subject: Duophony? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is duophony possible in a modular synth? I asked this in another thread but I think it was over shadowed by the rest of my questions.
I love my Oddity softsynth. Mostly because of the ring mod and duophony combo.
If you play two notes it assigns an osc to each. You can then play them against eachother using the ring mod. It sounds amazing. I'd like to add this feature to my soon-to-be modular.
Anyone know how? Is it even a possibilty on modern modulars?
Thanks!
-brad
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cbm



Joined: Oct 25, 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

 
If you have a keyboard which will allow this, then sure, you can configure a modular to do this.

If you drive your modular with a MIDI keyboard you should be able to do this, too.

-C
 
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popsicko



Joined: Nov 05, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Can you explain a bit more?
I will be using a Korg Kontrol49 as my keyboard.
I thought it would be done on the modular itself. Like some special module.
-brad
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Kwote



Joined: Jan 21, 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

you need a midi to cv converter that can handle more than one voice. then you need an equal setup for each voice.

the most basic would be VCO, VCF, VCA for voice 1.
another VCO, VCF, VCA for voice 2.

so far i'm just monophonic but ultimately with a large enough modular you can delve into full blown polyphony. it's just not the most realistic thing if you want all your voices to be similar and you're using more than the vanilla VCO, VCF, VCA combo. lot of modules to buy. lots of coinage to drop.

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xjscott



Joined: Apr 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Worth noting is that the ARP duophonic keyboards, which the Oddity emulates, outputs two pitch CVs, but only one gate. So you have independent pitch control of two oscillators, but you only have monophonic envelope control.

To do this without MIDI and a CV converter, you'll need a duophonic keyboard for your modular.
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popsicko



Joined: Nov 05, 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, I don't think identical setups for each note is what I really had in mind.
Is there a way to do this with a regular MIDI keyboard or a particular MIDI/CV converter? It would seem very possible for someone to make something like this, but unlikely. Bummer, as it's so much fun.
-b
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cbm



Joined: Oct 25, 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A combination of a MIDI interface that can put out two notes, a little bit of logic and a switch should get you pretty close. This is not an off the shelf solution, but something that would have to be patched and experimented with.

Basically you want to feed the same CV to both oscillators when only one note is down, but you want to switch the CV to one of the oscillators when two notes are held.

It's definitely doable, IMO.
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popsicko



Joined: Nov 05, 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Exactly! Should be fun to try and figure this one out. Maybe the guys at Analog Haven know how. They have all the gear in front of them all day. I know I would be playing with that stuff all day! I'd work overtime!
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xjscott



Joined: Apr 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, good catch, I overlooked that you need both CVs to be one key only when only one key is down, and there are no MIDI to CVs I know of that do that, but there should be.

Here you can find a description of the design of the ARP 3620 duophonic keyboard, including the schematics:

http://guitarfool.com/ARP2600.html

That's how it works but I am not sure it is helpful. You can see that there is a shunt from the master summation output/lower voice input into the upper voice input, and it seems to sum there with the upper voice input coming in from the 2nd voice memory circuit/analog latch.

The description at 2.3 says:

Quote:
The upper voice summation sums and inverts the control voltage from the Master Summation Circuit and the 'difference' voltage from the second voice memory. The combination of these two voltages yields a high note priority control voltage.


Hm.
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Kwote



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i'm not a great speculator as i learn best through experience.

but anyways, i like this product:

http://www.synthtech.com/motm650.html

i'll be getting one once it's released in my format(frac).

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REwire



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

These are the Polyphonic Midi -CV units that I know of:

Encore Expressionist (in production)
Doepfer MCV24 (discontinued)
Analogue Systems RS-370 Polyphonic Harmonic Generator (additive Synth Engine + Converter)
MAPS sequencer

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cbm



Joined: Oct 25, 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

 
Kenton makes (made?) a couple of them.

Buchla makes one for the 200e

I bet there are others, too.

-C
 
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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cbm wrote:
 
Kenton makes (made?) a couple of them.

Buchla makes one for the 200e

I bet there are others, too.

-C
 


Kenton still makes them.

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REwire



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EdisonRex wrote:
Kenton still makes them.


You mean the Pro-2? I only see the ProSolo and Pro2000 on their page currently. The Pro-2000 being dual channel really should be polyphonic but alas, not.
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xjscott



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think it's already an assumption that the polyphonic CV converters are a known and considered item which basically require two complete mono modular signal chains to work, but this is not what is being queried. To clarify: the ARP keyboards and the Oddity softsynth have a special duophonic mode, which as discussed, has a single gate output and two CV outputs, but if only one key is pressed, the second CV output mirrors the output of the first. So if you have 3 oscillators, you have the ability to play all three at once but if you press a second key on the keyboard, the pitch of the third oscillator is overriden. I have not seen this mode of operation on any poly MIDI to CV converters that I have seen, but I haven't had experience with all the ones listed. Are you guys saying that you have seen this specific mode on one of those models?

Reading the 2k manual now to see... http://www.kentonuk.com/kmanualspdf/pro2kman.pdf ... ok I read it. Not sure. It seems the A & B channels are two separate mono units each on their own channel and an ARP duophony mode is not supported.
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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I own a pro-2k, I will verify the operation tonight but it's not the A/B port you would use, you would configure the aux channels for CVs and gate. I will try it and report back.
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popsicko



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Looking around at some of the different MIDI/CV units and nothing stands out. If they can, it might be something I have to trick them into doing. Maybe I'll email Doepfer and see if they can make one. They seem to be in to customer requests. Now if I can only get a thousand or so others that want the same exact thing.. . . . maybe they can add this functionality into the new a-100 keyboard they are working on. Could it be as easy as a firmware update to an existing module?
-b
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softfin



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have an old mk1 pro-2k, but haven't succeeded to get duophony with my yamaha cs-15.
I don't know would it work better with other synths. Also, the newer model might work better in this regard?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

softfin wrote:
I have an old mk1 pro-2k, but haven't succeeded to get duophony with my yamaha cs-15.
I don't know would it work better with other synths. Also, the newer model might work better in this regard?


I have a mkii and I'm playing with it now, using the M5N. Still messing about with parameters. "2 note memory" implies it should work, but I'm still playing with it.

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davep



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

True duophony could be done like this:

Use a Nord G2 as the controller keyboard for your analog modular.

Create a G2 patch that uses two of the "Monokey" modules, one set to LOW and one set to HI (to generate low-note-priority monophonic CV and a separate hi-note-priority monophonic CV).

Route these two different CVs to two different MidiNote out modules, set to two different midi channels.

Use a multichannel midi-to-CV interface like an Expressionist to send the low note CV to one osc in the analog modular and the hi note CV to another osc.

Now, when you play a monophonic part, both oscs will play the note. But when you play two notes, one osc will track the low note and one will track the high note. Just like the Arp Odyssey. Viola!

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REwire



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Anyone with an Expressionist wouldn't need the G2 as it does Duophony natively.

That would be a good choice with two separate converters like Pro-Solos or the Pro-2000 (which doesn't do Duophony, as I've been trying with mine. It's simply two separate Pro-Solos in one).

But a G2 is an expensive need to get this to happen. Perhaps there's a way in a Sequencer to (maybe a Midi Plug-In) that separates high and low notes to two separate midi channels to two converters.

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Per



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I use a Doepfer MC24 as a 7-8 channel polyfonic controller of a modular and it works every day. Try to find one 2nd hand, it is great for that purpose.
Per
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morbius



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The Synthesizers.com QKB15S will do exactly what you want. It's a five-octave MIDI keyboard (MIDI IN and MIDI OUT) with a built-in CV converter. You can set the split-point at one octave or two octaves. There are individual CV and Gate outputs for each of the two sections. When in the mono-mode, you get the velocity output on the 2nd CV output jack. I modified mine so that I've got a slew-limiter built-in, with the controls on the left side of the keyboard, and can change the amount of slew (or glide), on/off, momentary on, slew-up/slew-down or both, within easy reach of my left hand (while still playing within the first octave). Also, a jack for a footswitch controller for the slew. Oh yeah... there are brackets so you can stack two keyboards.
http://www.synthesizers.com/qkb15s.html

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peng



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I do this sometimes with two Kenton Pro Solo convertors. Set one to high note priority and the other to low note priority.
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Crazy_Jane



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

it's less trouble sometimes just to s/h the cv against the gate signal and feed that to the oscs/filter for one voice, and run the cv direct to the oscs/filter for the other.

less than perfect in terms of the two voices stacking up on a single note (though i've found that surprisingly inoffensive on my doepfer)... but it gets you there without resorting to extra modules just to do that.
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