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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:39 am Post subject:
schematic: +v pins as CV IN pins on CMOS with SCHEMATIC |
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This trick which has been floating around in some of these threads for a bit now (i have seen jnuary and RF both mentioning the successful use of it), and for those who havent seen it or tried it,well i highly recommend it.
after working up a giant mess of breadboard stuff today, , i was trying to plug a cv into an oscillator with having to make a big vco on breadboard, when i remembered the CV to +v trick.
wow. it works great with a 40106 and i am sure it would work with others. to me it doesnt really sound like a starve at all though you do get some weird results (in a good way)
this might not be the direction you want to take for precision BACH concertos but for lunetta stuff, i think it works a lot better than a vactrol on a 40106.
(and easier too)
anyway. i just wanted to make a thread about this so no one would miss it and so maybe we could get some ideas bouncing around about how to add features like offset, hi and low limits, etc. one thing i'd like to be able to do for sure is shift the whole CV signal down an octave or two and i think this can be done with offset but i am never sure.
anyway, thanks to Jnuary who first turned me on to this. _________________ -------------------------------------------- check out various dan music at: http://www.myspace.com/lossnyc
http://www.myspace.com/snazelle
http://www.soundclick.com/lossnyc.htm http://www.indie911.com/dan-snazelle Last edited by loss1234 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:22 am; edited 3 times in total |
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RF
Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 1502 Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
Audio files: 28
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:07 am Post subject:
Re: using the +v pins as CV IN pins on CMOS chips |
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loss1234 wrote: | ...works a lot better than a vactrol on a 40106.
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Dan - What vactrol were you using - and what was your experience with it? |
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
Audio files: 41
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject:
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lets see i think i tried home rolled ones and also tried a vactec of some kind. my problem was it didnt seem to respond to as wide of a range. that could be my memory serving me wrong but it seemed that if i went up into super high freqs i didnt get much of a reaction (i think i posted once about that even...looking for ways to offset the signal)
anyway, i know it is possible because i even have a schematic i DREW that i used a vactrol to a 40106 but i really think this voltage trick is better for my quick and dirty use.
super simple and effective. _________________ -------------------------------------------- check out various dan music at: http://www.myspace.com/lossnyc
http://www.myspace.com/snazelle
http://www.soundclick.com/lossnyc.htm http://www.indie911.com/dan-snazelle |
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
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Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:10 am Post subject:
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double post Last edited by loss1234 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
Audio files: 41
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fluxmonkey
Joined: Jun 24, 2005 Posts: 708 Location: cleve
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Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:33 am Post subject:
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wow, that looks a lot more involved/refined than what i tried.
i had several oscillators built on a single 40106 chip (outputs mixed together thru resistors). on the same breadboard, i also had a 4093 wired as 4 oscillators, each one gating the next... pretty large cap values, so it was slow. then i just disconnected the power from pin 14 of the 40106, and fed the output of the last 4093 oscillator into the 40106 power pin. instant freq out!
not sure i'd call it CV or "modulation", more like brute force, but a very cool trick.
bbob _________________ www.fluxmonkey.com |
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
Audio files: 41
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CJ Miller
Joined: Jan 07, 2007 Posts: 368 Location: 127.0.0.1
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Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:47 pm Post subject:
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Another option is to use a 4024 or LM3900 as a pulse-counter, so that the voltage ramps up for each pulse it receives. Adjust how many pulses and you could have some sort of rhythmic modulation. |
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
Audio files: 41
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
Audio files: 41
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CJ Miller
Joined: Jan 07, 2007 Posts: 368 Location: 127.0.0.1
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:21 pm Post subject:
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loss1234 wrote: | can you explain that a little more?
i dont think i have ever used a pulse counter |
A pulse counter is a circuit which outputs a voltage, this voltage level depends upon how many pulses are counted. A typical application might be a chip putting out zero volts with a zero count. It could count up to, for instance, 24 pulses. So for a +12V supply would mean that for each pulse input, the output increases by 0.5V. At the 24th pulse it would have ramped up to 12V and reset to zero.
This is another percussion application I learned from Thomas Henry, via his "Electronic Drum Cookbook". He calls it a "Beat Follower", his counts from 0 to 127. I played with it on breadboard once long ago, and have meant to make some more versions of such for some time. Also I was reading about this in some LM3900 application notes, along with the other hundreds of things those chips can be used for. |
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jnuaury
Joined: Feb 28, 2008 Posts: 161 Location: chicago
Audio files: 9
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Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:48 am Post subject:
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ive been away from the internet for most of this month!
cant believe this i missed this thread...
would you mind pointing me towards RFs post on this? i dont think i searched for the right keywords
this technique has been one of my favorite things to do since i started fiddling with electronics but i could never find any projects people have done with it (there HAS to be somebody who did this back a couple decades ago....)
using an op amp to add an offset has been something that although makes things more "proper" ive found makes things maybe more complicatedly than it needs to be
i like how mystical the circuit seems when you dont need that extra power cable... of course this perspective has nothing to do with practicality
i also hardly use frequency pots for oscillators on the 40106 when using the power input as CV method - theres so much variation you can get by altering the voltage that i like fixing the values of the oscillators and adding a pot to adjust the current of the incoming voltage and sometimes a second pot wired as a voltage divider
i havent found the perfect values yet but i like using three inverters at audio rates wired to one output and three at subaudio to another so i can derive funny audio or a more complex CV from any CV source
one pot and three jacks is a panel friendly layout than having 6 frequency knobs thrown in i guess it all depends on whether the voltage input is a extra feature or the main function.... |
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
Audio files: 41
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Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:04 am Post subject:
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well let me explain how i am using it.
i think in my situation, the more pots the better, because it is now becoming almost a CV BRAIN/sequencer/PSUEDO RANDOM DEVICE.
LET ME EXPLAIN:
first of all, on my model, the opamp pins 2 and 3 are flipped. so i took the output from the opamp and i sent it to a breadboard that has
1. the 2nd 40106 which is about to be controlled VIA CV.
2 BUt i also took another output from the CV/power area (the same junction that goes into pin 14 of the final cmos chip. here i simple put a jack
3. This means that i have a lot more options for controlling my modular.
a. i can take the 40106 output and use it TO FM MODULATE things. or i can use it as an audio source, or to modulate the Filter at audio frequencies, or just as a CV source wherever. and with all the pots on the panel, you can easily turn the module into a sub audio monster or a screeching random note high frequency bomb! it really makes me feel like i can play it like an instrument.
also, the non audio output, the straight CV output, can obviously be used to control a VCO, or can be fed into a comparator to get gates out of it, or can be used with, well, any thing.
I also added some switches that (monetary switches) interrupt the 4094, flip the resets High on the 4015, and select 2 different data or clock ins on the 4015 or 4094. and when you start getting those buttons going, wow...the infinite weirdness just keeps going and going..
i must say this is now my FAVORITE control modular. if hooked up to mults and done right, i have been able to get stuff that sounds like a sequencer or others that sound like appregiators, or trills, or crazy stuff!
the key is feeding the two outputs to different places, and really getting creative with how the modulation comes into play.
IF i do a pcb of this, i would also like to add some CV INS onto the board
nothing fancy, just maybe some vactrol control of the clocks and maybe a 4016 to give cv control of turning the resets on and off, etc.
i will post a sample later!!!
thanks to the LUNETTA FORUM for getting these ideas flowing
!!!!!!! _________________ -------------------------------------------- check out various dan music at: http://www.myspace.com/lossnyc
http://www.myspace.com/snazelle
http://www.soundclick.com/lossnyc.htm http://www.indie911.com/dan-snazelle |
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jnuaury
Joined: Feb 28, 2008 Posts: 161 Location: chicago
Audio files: 9
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Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:27 am Post subject:
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i hope you didnt think i viewed your circuit as invalid!
i just like making the simplest circuit i can and then complicating them later via patchcords
looking forward to your samples |
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
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jnuaury
Joined: Feb 28, 2008 Posts: 161 Location: chicago
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:50 am Post subject:
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mp3 demonstrations are coming soon!
i recorded a few 30 secondish clips but im having trouble uploading them...
hopefully computers/internets will wise up by the end of tonight |
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24081 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
G2 patch files: 320
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:42 am Post subject:
Re: MP3's!!!! |
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loss1234 wrote: | is something wrong with server? |
Yes, uploads seem to not work currently. _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24081 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject:
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It should work again, so let's hear 'm! _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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jnuaury
Joined: Feb 28, 2008 Posts: 161 Location: chicago
Audio files: 9
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject:
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as promised...
this is a one chip circuit using a 4093
the clips werent made to sound musical or cool but just provide simple interaction between a CV source and the chip
two are just a stepped random voltage (always between 0 and 5 volts) powering the 4093 once without a "starve" pot and once with it adding resistance (no knob tweaking)
the other one uses an audio source (sine wave vco) for the power input causing the 4093 to act as a waveshaper i set the starve pot so it would mangle the sine wave but let you still identify the "notes" playing (which are of course random) at the beginning of the clip the rate of the random notes is slow and then later i turn the rate knob up a bit and then lighten up on the starve effect near the end
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lunettaSH.mp3 |
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stepped random voltages and a pot used to starve the current from the CV to the chip |
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lunettaSHstrv.mp3 |
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1208 Time(s) |
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sine wave vco playing random notes plugged into power input |
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lunettarandosine.mp3 |
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1244 Time(s) |
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
Audio files: 41
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject:
samples |
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Ok
these samples are either of the my ENDLESS NOISE schematic with ONLY the output of the +V cved 40106 as the audio OR my modular being controlled by both the CV OUT jack AND the +v CVED 40106 audio out at the same time.
some of the clips experimented with having the audio from the 40106 AND the audio from the CVED vco go through an XOR
or some other combos i cant remember.
i got some great interactions though. i want to add more reset, reload, and input change toggles (not on schematic) to this.
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plus v cv 40106 1.mp3 |
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plus v cv 40106 2.mp3 |
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plus v cv 40106 3.mp3 |
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plus v cv 40106 4.mp3 |
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final duet modular and endl.mp3 |
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2 MB |
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_________________ -------------------------------------------- check out various dan music at: http://www.myspace.com/lossnyc
http://www.myspace.com/snazelle
http://www.soundclick.com/lossnyc.htm http://www.indie911.com/dan-snazelle |
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loss1234
Joined: Jul 24, 2007 Posts: 1536 Location: nyc
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RF
Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 1502 Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject:
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Hey guys - those are all inspiring samples!
Thanks for posting them - I gotta get back to working with mine!
bruce |
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