electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
 Forum index » Discussion » Composition
Alvin Lucier's experiments with brainwave amplification
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: elektro80
Page 1 of 1 [14 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
Low Note



Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 146
Location: New Jersey
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:05 am    Post subject: Alvin Lucier's experiments with brainwave amplification
Subject description: Music for Solo Performer
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Has anyone seen this before? I'm currently watching him providing the brainwaves from the DVD "OHM+: the early gurus of electronic music" but there is another example on youtube here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3uuYNKVQNMU

Has anything been done with this beyond his work in the 1960s?

doug
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
thermionicjunky



Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Posts: 90
Location: san francisco

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think John Lennon and Yoko Ono demonstrated something similar on the Mike Douglas show in 1972.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Acoustic Interloper



Joined: Jul 07, 2007
Posts: 2067
Location: Berks County, PA
Audio files: 89

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:55 am    Post subject: Re: Alvin Lucier's experiments with brainwave amplification
Subject description: Music for Solo Performer
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Low Note wrote:

Has anything been done with this beyond his work in the 1960s?
doug

Ran across a reference to http://www.neurosonics.com/tech/bgm.html while re-reading The Art of Digital Music. Ray Kuzweil is involved in this company. Above page says:
Quote:

The first NeuroSonics technology, Brain Generated Music™ (BGM™), is a brain wave biofeedback system capable of evoking the "Relaxation Response," a desirable state of deep relaxation.

Pages doesn't really say a lot about music.

I used to have an inexpensive alpha feedback machine in the 70's, don't remember who made it. Simple breating exercises or prolonged walking or running always seemed to work better for me. I have some doubts about generating music from alpha -- probably not a lot of tension and release, probably OK for ambient. I'd rather generate alpha from music.

_________________
When the stream is deep
my wild little dog frolics,
when shallow, she drinks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Acoustic Interloper



Joined: Jul 07, 2007
Posts: 2067
Location: Berks County, PA
Audio files: 89

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The above website gets a little more into the music on http://www.neurosonics.com/tech/bgm-kurzweil.html . This was interesting:
Quote:

The BGM algorithm is designed to encourage the generation of alpha waves by producing pleasurable harmonic combinations upon detection of alpha waves, and less pleasant sounds and sound combinations when alpha detection is low. In addition, the fact that the sounds are synchronized to the user’s own alpha wavelength to create a resonance with the user’s own alpha rhythm also encourages alpha production.

I guess the BGM suppliers get to decide what's a "pleasurable harmonic combination" and what isn't. I happen to like some dissonant pieces, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if deep listening to them helps produces alpha. In that case I wouldn't even consider hooking myself up to a machine that conditions me to prefer a certain form of harmony by correlating it with my own alpha brainwave activity.

Also, I guess it would condition people who like dissonance to produce beta brainwaves. Seems like a fairly obvious shortcoming.

_________________
When the stream is deep
my wild little dog frolics,
when shallow, she drinks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
jksuperstar



Joined: Aug 20, 2004
Posts: 2503
Location: Denver
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 18

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Check out the openeeg project
http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/doc/

That'll get you some good hardware for reading your brain state. Then you get some of the free software, there's a whole list on the left bar of the above listed website, but two things especially: NeuroServer (talks to the OpenEEG and puts it into a standard protocol), the BrainBay, a modular tool for analysis, and control. This includes MIDI output.
http://www.shifz.org/brainbay/

Hardware, for a basic setup, runs less than $200. Or, you can build a soundcard eeg (see openeeg's webpage), although I don't think NeuroServer supports it yet. So there are limited applications for it. That may have changed now.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Low Note



Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 146
Location: New Jersey
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm trying to find links for it, but there are other projects where people put together audio tracks meant to simulate drug experiences. I think one of the projects included a hardware interface as well.

Here is one of the companies: http://www.i-doser.com/

And another: http://www.bwgen.com/

I never tried either of them, but I have had friends report varying degrees of mind altering from them. The question I find fascinating from all of these attempts is... "Is this music?" I'm very comfortable not having an answer, though.

All of this is a little different from what I was originally curious about. The video I posted used alpha waves to excite various percussion instruments. I was curious if anything had been done to build on this - perhaps take alpha waves and use them as an lfo or something of the sort.

Of course, the whole idea of taping a bunch of alpha amplifiers to my head and then playing a synth creates a pretty creepy image in my head.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
lacroix



Joined: Jan 06, 2007
Posts: 10
Location: Uebersee/deep south Germany

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Awesome stuff.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sdcurtin



Joined: Dec 15, 2007
Posts: 18
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:13 am    Post subject: RE: EEG and Music Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is a very big subject but hasn't got a lot of press in recent years, but I have some personal experiences I can relate. Sorry if it's long winded. I haven't heard of many (actually any) other people doing creative sound design with EEG biofeedback, so if you know of someone else doing this, please let me know!

I first hooked up an EEG unit to an EML synthesizer in 1980, inspired by David Rosenboom's book "Biofeedback and the Arts: Results of Early Experiments", published in 1975 based on his work in Toronto at the time. I later studied composition with him at Mills for my MFA but the subject of EEG didn't come up much.

In 2001 I started EEG training with Dr. Les Fehmi of the Princeton Biofeedback Center, and bought a Waverider EEG unit when I moved to Michigan that year. I've since been certified as a Neurofeedback Specialist and have gone back to grad school in Psychology so that I can effectively combine Neurofeedback (that is Biofeedback with brain waves) and the right music/sound in a clinical setting.

I think the reason that there aren't a lot of records of this (I have one or two of Rosenboom's) is that it's a lot more interesting to listen to when it's YOUR brain in the feedback loop. The determination of what frequencies to reinforce/reward with the feedback is a tricky process, and can bring about remarkable states of both mental effectiveness and ineffectiveness, so it's not a toy to be played with. I've only scratched the surface of what's possible, using the Waverider and Brainmaster EEG units, the Bioexplorer software and controlling Audiomulch through MIDIhub connection, in addition to Bioexplorer's built-in simple controls of audio volume.

I'll be able to start working entirely on my own when I have my LLP (limited license practitioner) around August of 2009. Michigan law states that until then I have to be working under the direct supervision and referral of a single licensed psychologist, who is current Tom Rosenbaum, PhD, LP in Ann Arbor. It's kind of ironic that on the one hand the drug companies and medical community pooh-pooh neurofeedback as a modality, and the insurance companies won't pay for it as a result, and on the other hand there are all these legal restrictions on who can practice it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
rachmiel



Joined: Jan 03, 2006
Posts: 34
Location: pittsford, ny

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: RE: EEG and Music Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sdcurtin wrote:
This is a very big subject but hasn't got a lot of press in recent years, but I have some personal experiences I can relate. Sorry if it's long winded. I haven't heard of many (actually any) other people doing creative sound design with EEG biofeedback, so if you know of someone else doing this, please let me know!

I first hooked up an EEG unit to an EML synthesizer in 1980, inspired by David Rosenboom's book "Biofeedback and the Arts: Results of Early Experiments", published in 1975 based on his work in Toronto at the time. I later studied composition with him at Mills for my MFA but the subject of EEG didn't come up much.

In 2001 I started EEG training with Dr. Les Fehmi of the Princeton Biofeedback Center, and bought a Waverider EEG unit when I moved to Michigan that year. I've since been certified as a Neurofeedback Specialist and have gone back to grad school in Psychology so that I can effectively combine Neurofeedback (that is Biofeedback with brain waves) and the right music/sound in a clinical setting.

I think the reason that there aren't a lot of records of this (I have one or two of Rosenboom's) is that it's a lot more interesting to listen to when it's YOUR brain in the feedback loop. The determination of what frequencies to reinforce/reward with the feedback is a tricky process, and can bring about remarkable states of both mental effectiveness and ineffectiveness, so it's not a toy to be played with. I've only scratched the surface of what's possible, using the Waverider and Brainmaster EEG units, the Bioexplorer software and controlling Audiomulch through MIDIhub connection, in addition to Bioexplorer's built-in simple controls of audio volume.

I'll be able to start working entirely on my own when I have my LLP (limited license practitioner) around August of 2009. Michigan law states that until then I have to be working under the direct supervision and referral of a single licensed psychologist, who is current Tom Rosenbaum, PhD, LP in Ann Arbor. It's kind of ironic that on the one hand the drug companies and medical community pooh-pooh neurofeedback as a modality, and the insurance companies won't pay for it as a result, and on the other hand there are all these legal restrictions on who can practice it.

fascinating.

have you heard about the neuro... experiments in which the brain waves of complex emotional states such as depression, anxiety, etc. are analyzed, then by using feedback in the form of sound or visuals, the user learns how to control this state, for example: reduce depression, generate equanimity from anxiety, etc.?

_________________
thwart the grid!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
sdcurtin



Joined: Dec 15, 2007
Posts: 18
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:21 pm    Post subject: Neuro experiments Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This has moved beyond experiments now, and is what I've been doing for myself for the last five years and have been doing for other people for the last two years. Hundreds of Neurofeedback practitioners do this every day, and there's 30 years of clinical research to back it up.

Some links:
www.eeginfo.com
www.isnr.org
www.openfocus.com
www.brain-trainer.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
rachmiel



Joined: Jan 03, 2006
Posts: 34
Location: pittsford, ny

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Neuro experiments Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sdcurtin wrote:
This has moved beyond experiments now, and is what I've been doing for myself for the last five years and have been doing for other people for the last two years. Hundreds of Neurofeedback practitioners do this every day, and there's 30 years of clinical research to back it up.

Some links:
www.eeginfo.com
www.isnr.org
www.openfocus.com
www.brain-trainer.com

aha! thanks for the links. so is this effective enough to be 'competition' for medication when it comes to anxiety, depression, bipolarity? what about really nasty conditions like schizophrenia?

_________________
thwart the grid!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
sdcurtin



Joined: Dec 15, 2007
Posts: 18
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:32 pm    Post subject: Alternatives to meds Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We can't really claim that Neurofeedback "cures" anything- that would be asking for being sued for doing medicine without a license. What we can say is that can alleviate the symptoms of many of these conditions and is a very useful management tool. Like any other tool, it can be overused, but in the right hands with the right therapist (as I hope to be sometime soon) it can really help. I've seen it do this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sam_Zen



Joined: Mar 08, 2008
Posts: 251
Location: NL

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As soon as the modular synths came up, the concept of alpha feedback entered as well.
Of course it's an interesting field, but I don't see much difference with the Midi-gloves of Michel Waiszvis or other body-control.
A matter of the right sensors and interfaces.

Ok, this is feedback, but I've seen experiments in a mental clinic where the EEG sensors were attached to a alphawave detector.
With indeed the intention to cure people from stress. But the box produced via a tiny speaker a terrible shrieky sine-frequency.
So no big surprise that they stopped the experiment because of lack of success..

Yep, the performance of Alvin Lucier is far more sophisticated technically. But the translation of the input is imo still 'note-bound'
like the academic tradition. This can easily lead to an output which give an impression of continuing random events.
Which will be quite boring after a while, and I will start to wonder : why do I have to look at someone on the stage in the
spotlite when nothing is supposed to happen? I could easily make the mistake to associate a moving shoulder with some sound.

Acoustic Interloper mentions the 'dissonance' aspect, while it is a valid expression too.
So the programmers decide what is defined as a 'pleasing' harmony for the listener and what not.
Well, I got a headache when I have to listen more than 2 mins to only neat 3-tone major chords on a piano..

EM is not anymore just single-note bound. It has introduced cycles, sequences, looping of events.
Then one can also give a command for a 'change', not only for some frequency.
Producing a very complicated drum-solo via brain-power is not that difficult.
So I think it could be the start of a more significant brain-control, if some repeated bar with bass and drums,
would be replaced by a slightly different one in content after 8 times. Or take a break.

_________________
0.618033988
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
solyaris



Joined: Jun 02, 2005
Posts: 49
Location: Genova, Italy

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Low Note wrote:
I'm trying to find links for it, but there are other projects where people put together audio tracks meant to simulate drug experiences.


BTW, about brainwaves as "drugs" etc. A frient pointed out this article that I feel superficial:

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/kimkomando/2008-08-07-digital-drugs_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip


Quote:
I never tried either of them, but I have had friends report varying degrees of mind altering from them.


There was times when I approached a bit brainwaves behaviours and I tryied to use these in a subliminal way in sound mix; I think brainwaves works as "expected" ... but I'm philosiphically against use of this "forcing the brain";

Like techno music reset-with-beats "technology" ...,
brainwaves force the BRAIN in a compelled behaviours ...

It seem to me these means works in facts like a drug, because you achive a certain brain status using violence ... without freedom of MIND ...


Quote:
The question I find fascinating from all of these attempts is... "Is this music?" I'm very comfortable not having an answer, though.


I believe this in NOT music: infortunately ...?!... we (human beings) are not plants ... I do not think that insert sensors in the brain is a serious idea to let neurons sing for us ... and we have to follow, willingly or unwillingly, paths of THOUGHTS ...

Music achive peaks of beauty (or whaterver you want to call it ...)
when "mind" (above the brain) discover a new thing ...
This discovery, that have to start after the freedom of mind ...
not after reset of brain ... Obiouvsly I talk about art results ... viceversa all (white)-noise could be defined music ... too complicated ? Smile


All in all I think video in the first post is a theatrical performance, not so related to the mistery of music meaning I'm looking for ...


giorgio

_________________
http://solyaris.altervista.org www.myspace.com/solyaris www.youtube.com/solyarismusic
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: elektro80
Page 1 of 1 [14 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Discussion » Composition
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use