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Low Note
Joined: Jul 20, 2007 Posts: 146 Location: New Jersey
Audio files: 2
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Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:05 am Post subject:
Alvin Lucier's experiments with brainwave amplification Subject description: Music for Solo Performer |
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Has anyone seen this before? I'm currently watching him providing the brainwaves from the DVD "OHM+: the early gurus of electronic music" but there is another example on youtube here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3uuYNKVQNMU
Has anything been done with this beyond his work in the 1960s?
doug |
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thermionicjunky
Joined: Dec 07, 2006 Posts: 90 Location: san francisco
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Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:37 am Post subject:
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I think John Lennon and Yoko Ono demonstrated something similar on the Mike Douglas show in 1972. |
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Acoustic Interloper
Joined: Jul 07, 2007 Posts: 2067 Location: Berks County, PA
Audio files: 89
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:55 am Post subject:
Re: Alvin Lucier's experiments with brainwave amplification Subject description: Music for Solo Performer |
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Low Note wrote: |
Has anything been done with this beyond his work in the 1960s?
doug |
Ran across a reference to http://www.neurosonics.com/tech/bgm.html while re-reading The Art of Digital Music. Ray Kuzweil is involved in this company. Above page says:
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The first NeuroSonics technology, Brain Generated Music™ (BGM™), is a brain wave biofeedback system capable of evoking the "Relaxation Response," a desirable state of deep relaxation.
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Pages doesn't really say a lot about music.
I used to have an inexpensive alpha feedback machine in the 70's, don't remember who made it. Simple breating exercises or prolonged walking or running always seemed to work better for me. I have some doubts about generating music from alpha -- probably not a lot of tension and release, probably OK for ambient. I'd rather generate alpha from music. _________________ When the stream is deep
my wild little dog frolics,
when shallow, she drinks. |
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Acoustic Interloper
Joined: Jul 07, 2007 Posts: 2067 Location: Berks County, PA
Audio files: 89
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:17 am Post subject:
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The above website gets a little more into the music on http://www.neurosonics.com/tech/bgm-kurzweil.html . This was interesting:
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The BGM algorithm is designed to encourage the generation of alpha waves by producing pleasurable harmonic combinations upon detection of alpha waves, and less pleasant sounds and sound combinations when alpha detection is low. In addition, the fact that the sounds are synchronized to the user’s own alpha wavelength to create a resonance with the user’s own alpha rhythm also encourages alpha production.
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I guess the BGM suppliers get to decide what's a "pleasurable harmonic combination" and what isn't. I happen to like some dissonant pieces, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if deep listening to them helps produces alpha. In that case I wouldn't even consider hooking myself up to a machine that conditions me to prefer a certain form of harmony by correlating it with my own alpha brainwave activity.
Also, I guess it would condition people who like dissonance to produce beta brainwaves. Seems like a fairly obvious shortcoming. _________________ When the stream is deep
my wild little dog frolics,
when shallow, she drinks. |
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jksuperstar
Joined: Aug 20, 2004 Posts: 2503 Location: Denver
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 18
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:04 am Post subject:
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Check out the openeeg project
http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/doc/
That'll get you some good hardware for reading your brain state. Then you get some of the free software, there's a whole list on the left bar of the above listed website, but two things especially: NeuroServer (talks to the OpenEEG and puts it into a standard protocol), the BrainBay, a modular tool for analysis, and control. This includes MIDI output.
http://www.shifz.org/brainbay/
Hardware, for a basic setup, runs less than $200. Or, you can build a soundcard eeg (see openeeg's webpage), although I don't think NeuroServer supports it yet. So there are limited applications for it. That may have changed now. |
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Low Note
Joined: Jul 20, 2007 Posts: 146 Location: New Jersey
Audio files: 2
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:10 pm Post subject:
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I'm trying to find links for it, but there are other projects where people put together audio tracks meant to simulate drug experiences. I think one of the projects included a hardware interface as well.
Here is one of the companies: http://www.i-doser.com/
And another: http://www.bwgen.com/
I never tried either of them, but I have had friends report varying degrees of mind altering from them. The question I find fascinating from all of these attempts is... "Is this music?" I'm very comfortable not having an answer, though.
All of this is a little different from what I was originally curious about. The video I posted used alpha waves to excite various percussion instruments. I was curious if anything had been done to build on this - perhaps take alpha waves and use them as an lfo or something of the sort.
Of course, the whole idea of taping a bunch of alpha amplifiers to my head and then playing a synth creates a pretty creepy image in my head. |
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lacroix
Joined: Jan 06, 2007 Posts: 10 Location: Uebersee/deep south Germany
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Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:44 am Post subject:
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Awesome stuff. |
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sdcurtin
Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Posts: 18 Location: Detroit, MI
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Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:13 am Post subject:
RE: EEG and Music |
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This is a very big subject but hasn't got a lot of press in recent years, but I have some personal experiences I can relate. Sorry if it's long winded. I haven't heard of many (actually any) other people doing creative sound design with EEG biofeedback, so if you know of someone else doing this, please let me know!
I first hooked up an EEG unit to an EML synthesizer in 1980, inspired by David Rosenboom's book "Biofeedback and the Arts: Results of Early Experiments", published in 1975 based on his work in Toronto at the time. I later studied composition with him at Mills for my MFA but the subject of EEG didn't come up much.
In 2001 I started EEG training with Dr. Les Fehmi of the Princeton Biofeedback Center, and bought a Waverider EEG unit when I moved to Michigan that year. I've since been certified as a Neurofeedback Specialist and have gone back to grad school in Psychology so that I can effectively combine Neurofeedback (that is Biofeedback with brain waves) and the right music/sound in a clinical setting.
I think the reason that there aren't a lot of records of this (I have one or two of Rosenboom's) is that it's a lot more interesting to listen to when it's YOUR brain in the feedback loop. The determination of what frequencies to reinforce/reward with the feedback is a tricky process, and can bring about remarkable states of both mental effectiveness and ineffectiveness, so it's not a toy to be played with. I've only scratched the surface of what's possible, using the Waverider and Brainmaster EEG units, the Bioexplorer software and controlling Audiomulch through MIDIhub connection, in addition to Bioexplorer's built-in simple controls of audio volume.
I'll be able to start working entirely on my own when I have my LLP (limited license practitioner) around August of 2009. Michigan law states that until then I have to be working under the direct supervision and referral of a single licensed psychologist, who is current Tom Rosenbaum, PhD, LP in Ann Arbor. It's kind of ironic that on the one hand the drug companies and medical community pooh-pooh neurofeedback as a modality, and the insurance companies won't pay for it as a result, and on the other hand there are all these legal restrictions on who can practice it. |
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rachmiel
Joined: Jan 03, 2006 Posts: 34 Location: pittsford, ny
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:36 am Post subject:
Re: RE: EEG and Music |
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sdcurtin wrote: | This is a very big subject but hasn't got a lot of press in recent years, but I have some personal experiences I can relate. Sorry if it's long winded. I haven't heard of many (actually any) other people doing creative sound design with EEG biofeedback, so if you know of someone else doing this, please let me know!
I first hooked up an EEG unit to an EML synthesizer in 1980, inspired by David Rosenboom's book "Biofeedback and the Arts: Results of Early Experiments", published in 1975 based on his work in Toronto at the time. I later studied composition with him at Mills for my MFA but the subject of EEG didn't come up much.
In 2001 I started EEG training with Dr. Les Fehmi of the Princeton Biofeedback Center, and bought a Waverider EEG unit when I moved to Michigan that year. I've since been certified as a Neurofeedback Specialist and have gone back to grad school in Psychology so that I can effectively combine Neurofeedback (that is Biofeedback with brain waves) and the right music/sound in a clinical setting.
I think the reason that there aren't a lot of records of this (I have one or two of Rosenboom's) is that it's a lot more interesting to listen to when it's YOUR brain in the feedback loop. The determination of what frequencies to reinforce/reward with the feedback is a tricky process, and can bring about remarkable states of both mental effectiveness and ineffectiveness, so it's not a toy to be played with. I've only scratched the surface of what's possible, using the Waverider and Brainmaster EEG units, the Bioexplorer software and controlling Audiomulch through MIDIhub connection, in addition to Bioexplorer's built-in simple controls of audio volume.
I'll be able to start working entirely on my own when I have my LLP (limited license practitioner) around August of 2009. Michigan law states that until then I have to be working under the direct supervision and referral of a single licensed psychologist, who is current Tom Rosenbaum, PhD, LP in Ann Arbor. It's kind of ironic that on the one hand the drug companies and medical community pooh-pooh neurofeedback as a modality, and the insurance companies won't pay for it as a result, and on the other hand there are all these legal restrictions on who can practice it. |
fascinating.
have you heard about the neuro... experiments in which the brain waves of complex emotional states such as depression, anxiety, etc. are analyzed, then by using feedback in the form of sound or visuals, the user learns how to control this state, for example: reduce depression, generate equanimity from anxiety, etc.? _________________ thwart the grid! |
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sdcurtin
Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Posts: 18 Location: Detroit, MI
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject:
Neuro experiments |
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This has moved beyond experiments now, and is what I've been doing for myself for the last five years and have been doing for other people for the last two years. Hundreds of Neurofeedback practitioners do this every day, and there's 30 years of clinical research to back it up.
Some links:
www.eeginfo.com
www.isnr.org
www.openfocus.com
www.brain-trainer.com |
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rachmiel
Joined: Jan 03, 2006 Posts: 34 Location: pittsford, ny
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject:
Re: Neuro experiments |
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sdcurtin wrote: | This has moved beyond experiments now, and is what I've been doing for myself for the last five years and have been doing for other people for the last two years. Hundreds of Neurofeedback practitioners do this every day, and there's 30 years of clinical research to back it up.
Some links:
www.eeginfo.com
www.isnr.org
www.openfocus.com
www.brain-trainer.com |
aha! thanks for the links. so is this effective enough to be 'competition' for medication when it comes to anxiety, depression, bipolarity? what about really nasty conditions like schizophrenia? _________________ thwart the grid! |
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sdcurtin
Joined: Dec 15, 2007 Posts: 18 Location: Detroit, MI
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Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject:
Alternatives to meds |
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We can't really claim that Neurofeedback "cures" anything- that would be asking for being sued for doing medicine without a license. What we can say is that can alleviate the symptoms of many of these conditions and is a very useful management tool. Like any other tool, it can be overused, but in the right hands with the right therapist (as I hope to be sometime soon) it can really help. I've seen it do this. |
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Sam_Zen
Joined: Mar 08, 2008 Posts: 251 Location: NL
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Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject:
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As soon as the modular synths came up, the concept of alpha feedback entered as well.
Of course it's an interesting field, but I don't see much difference with the Midi-gloves of Michel Waiszvis or other body-control.
A matter of the right sensors and interfaces.
Ok, this is feedback, but I've seen experiments in a mental clinic where the EEG sensors were attached to a alphawave detector.
With indeed the intention to cure people from stress. But the box produced via a tiny speaker a terrible shrieky sine-frequency.
So no big surprise that they stopped the experiment because of lack of success..
Yep, the performance of Alvin Lucier is far more sophisticated technically. But the translation of the input is imo still 'note-bound'
like the academic tradition. This can easily lead to an output which give an impression of continuing random events.
Which will be quite boring after a while, and I will start to wonder : why do I have to look at someone on the stage in the
spotlite when nothing is supposed to happen? I could easily make the mistake to associate a moving shoulder with some sound.
Acoustic Interloper mentions the 'dissonance' aspect, while it is a valid expression too.
So the programmers decide what is defined as a 'pleasing' harmony for the listener and what not.
Well, I got a headache when I have to listen more than 2 mins to only neat 3-tone major chords on a piano..
EM is not anymore just single-note bound. It has introduced cycles, sequences, looping of events.
Then one can also give a command for a 'change', not only for some frequency.
Producing a very complicated drum-solo via brain-power is not that difficult.
So I think it could be the start of a more significant brain-control, if some repeated bar with bass and drums,
would be replaced by a slightly different one in content after 8 times. Or take a break. _________________ 0.618033988 |
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solyaris
Joined: Jun 02, 2005 Posts: 49 Location: Genova, Italy
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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:35 am Post subject:
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Low Note wrote: | I'm trying to find links for it, but there are other projects where people put together audio tracks meant to simulate drug experiences. |
BTW, about brainwaves as "drugs" etc. A frient pointed out this article that I feel superficial:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/kimkomando/2008-08-07-digital-drugs_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip
Quote: | I never tried either of them, but I have had friends report varying degrees of mind altering from them. |
There was times when I approached a bit brainwaves behaviours and I tryied to use these in a subliminal way in sound mix; I think brainwaves works as "expected" ... but I'm philosiphically against use of this "forcing the brain";
Like techno music reset-with-beats "technology" ...,
brainwaves force the BRAIN in a compelled behaviours ...
It seem to me these means works in facts like a drug, because you achive a certain brain status using violence ... without freedom of MIND ...
Quote: | The question I find fascinating from all of these attempts is... "Is this music?" I'm very comfortable not having an answer, though. |
I believe this in NOT music: infortunately ...?!... we (human beings) are not plants ... I do not think that insert sensors in the brain is a serious idea to let neurons sing for us ... and we have to follow, willingly or unwillingly, paths of THOUGHTS ...
Music achive peaks of beauty (or whaterver you want to call it ...)
when "mind" (above the brain) discover a new thing ...
This discovery, that have to start after the freedom of mind ...
not after reset of brain ... Obiouvsly I talk about art results ... viceversa all (white)-noise could be defined music ... too complicated ?
All in all I think video in the first post is a theatrical performance, not so related to the mistery of music meaning I'm looking for ...
giorgio _________________ http://solyaris.altervista.org www.myspace.com/solyaris www.youtube.com/solyarismusic |
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