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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » The layout factory
Minimoog DIY
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Cem Curtis



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:38 am    Post subject: Minimoog DIY
Subject description: with PCB's
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Hello, since I'm building a Minimoog I like to share the PCB's with you. They are copied from the manual (many thanks to fantasyjackpalance.com) and may need some touching up.

Please use them fairly (non commercial) and post you progress and problems here on this forum, so we can all benefit from it.

[link removed by Blue Hell, see folow up post]

Greetings,
Frank

Last edited by Cem Curtis on Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for sharing this!
Last edited by numbertalk on Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Cem Curtis



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You're welcome Very Happy .
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303monkey



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi there,
seem to have a problem opening this
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry to step in like this, but copies of of copyrighted material are not allowable on electro-music.com - I had to remove the link from the first post in this thread.

Unless of course the Moog company would not have a problem with this.

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ericcoleridge



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
Sorry to step in like this, but copies of of copyrighted material are not allowable on electro-music.com - I had to remove the link from the first post in this thread.

Unless of course the Moog company would not have a problem with this.


Could the original Minimoog designs still be under copyright control? I thought that the control rights to most very early synths had expired by now, and that was why schematics are widely and openly published all over the net. No?
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camelneck



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ericcoleridge wrote:

Could the original Minimoog designs still be under copyright control? I thought that the control rights to most very early synths had expired by now, and that was why schematics are widely and openly published all over the net. No?


Are we talking about "patents" or "copyrights"?

The patent for the original Moog Filter was granted in the mid-1960's. So the "patent" for the Moog Filter expired in the mid-1980's since US patents expire after approximately 20 years. Since the original RA Moog/Moog Music went out of business around 1985, and since the last Minimoog Model D was produced in 1981, any other applicable patents for the Minimoog Model D would have also expired by now also.

Otherwise, Dr Moog probably could have put the "cabash" on all of the various Ladder Filters that have been sold by dozens of companies in the past 20 to 25 years, including those sold by Synthesizers.com and Synthesis Technology.

I didn't get the opportunity to see the documents in question--the documents that were posted and then removed by Blue Hell. So I'm not exactly sure if they were the PCB layouts that were created by the original Moog Music company and published in the Minimoog Model D Service Manual, or if they were PCB layouts that were drawn recently by the person who posted them.

If they were drawings that were made by Moog Music in the 1970's, I suppose that it is possible that they still might be under copyright control. But I don't know who they would belong to and who would have control over them today since the original Moog Music is no longer and since Dr. Moog left the company around 1977 when it was owned by Norlin. (Maybe Music-Parts.com?)

However, if they are new drawings that were created by the person who posted them, and if they are significantly different from the originals (so they couldn't be considered copies), I don't see how this would break any copyright laws even if they still do apply to the original Moog drawings. But, of course I'm not a lawyer either. Smile

David
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

camelneck wrote:


Are we talking about "patents" or "copyrights"?



We're talking copyright. The patent I think is long dead. My advice is to write to Moog, and ask if you can share the schematics as a DIY project..... but somehow I think I can guess what answer they will give you. Dumb? Perhaps. But I guess they will probably be protecting their latest instruments. Of course if you already have the schematics, there is nothing to stop you building one, and posting your cloned creation here Smile

Just ask them (Moog), then post me or Jan a PM with the letter they reply with Smile

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

camelneck wrote:
If they were drawings that were made by Moog Music in the 1970's


The first post in this thread states :

Quote:
They are copied from the manual


And this was the reason for me to remove the link.

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Just ask them (Moog)


Yup, that would be the right thing to do.

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camelneck



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
camelneck wrote:
If they were drawings that were made by Moog Music in the 1970's


The first post in this thread states :

Quote:
They are copied from the manual


And this was the reason for me to remove the link.


Well, it depends upon what you mean by "copy". Unfortunately, I'm old enough to remember the day when people would often use the word "copy" instead of the word "re-drew". Wink (Examples: He made (painted) a copy of the Mona Lisa. She copied my homework.) So "a copy" didn't always imply it was "an exact copy" as the word seems to imply today when you "make an electronic copy of a file" or "(photo-)copy a report".

But I take your clarification to mean that they were "electronic copies" of "scans" of the original layout drawings. If that is the case, then I whole-heartedly agree with your decision to remove them. Besides, it was really no loss since you were thoughtful enough not to remove the reference to Fantasyjacks.com. (In addition to pissing Moog off, I'm sure Fantasy Jack, who is a really good guy, probably wouldn't be too pleased with his scans being posted on other websites.)

However, even if it isn't an exact copy, unless it is sufficiently different, a copy can still violate the copyright law. (However, as I orginally pointed out in regards to this case, the old Moog Music company, which was owned by Norlin which is also defunct, had control over the copyrights. I doubt the new Moog Music company would have control over the copyrights unless they have taken the time and spent the money required to pursue this legally.

One of the reasons I made the original post was to draw the distinction between information that has been patented and information that has been copyrighten. Although I know a patent expires after 20 years, I was curious about when a copyright expires, or if it ever expires. In fact, I was hoping that we might have 1 or 2 lawyers, a few software geeks, or even a professional songwriter in this forum who might read my post and enlighten me. However, I guess I will just have to consult the all-knowing "Wikipedia" now. Smile

I think, but I'm not sure, that the copyrights on many old books, including those published as early as the turn of the century, still apply. Several years ago, I think Michael Jackson bought the copyrights to most of the Beatles' songs. Since he paid a large sum of money for them, I assume that he has "ownership" and "control" over them and he still reaps royalties associated with them when they are played over the air.

And this leads to another question: Are copyrights for books different than those for music and other media including software?

David
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

camelneck wrote:

And this leads to another question


David, No. Sorry, this doesn't (lead to another question). These are the rules of electro-music.com. Please just accept this.

thanks

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metacohl



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Can someone please show me where it says that schematics are covered by US copyright law, as I was pretty sure they are not....

Otherwise why would there be things like the "Mask Work" definition or the techniques that designers use to hide elements of their circuits.....

Edit* I suppose that copyright law can be extended to the diagrams or pictures of the schematic rather than the schematics themselves? Creative expression vs. intellectual content?

Edit* Another one lol. So after further research, I don't think anything relating to the schematics could be protected by copyright law. Read up on the "Useful Articles" definition in US Copyright law if you think otherwise.
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slacker



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

metacohl wrote:

Edit* I suppose that copyright law can be extended to the diagrams or pictures of the schematic rather than the schematics themselves? Creative expression vs. intellectual content?


That's exactly it, the drawing of the schematic is "protected" by copyright, the actual circuit it depicts isn't.

There some good info here that cover's most of what's discussed in this thread.

http://www.muzique.com/clones.htm
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metacohl



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

slacker wrote:


That's exactly it, the drawing of the schematic is "protected" by copyright, the actual circuit it depicts isn't.

There some good info here that cover's most of what's discussed in this thread.

http://www.muzique.com/clones.htm


Ill have to read into the link that you post, but if you look up the "Useful Articles" definition, you'll see that copyright protection only applies to drawings if there is a specifically aesthetic purpose to the drawing. If the drawing is wholly functional, as circuits are, I don't believe any copyright protection is extended.

Ya I just read through that link and I believe that info is wrong as schematics are not considered a graphic work as there is no purely aesthetic component seperable from the functional aspect of it.

Maybe someone who knows more about the topic can chime in and correct me though.
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metacohl



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm sure this gets discussed on here alot, and I feel kinda bad keeping this subject going, but I'm really intrigued now.

From US Copyright Office : http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#1-18

“Pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works” include two-dimensional and three-dimensional works of fine, graphic, and applied art, photographs, prints and art reproductions, maps, globes, charts, diagrams, models, and technical drawings, including architectural plans. Such works shall include works of artistic craftsmanship insofar as their form but not their mechanical or utilitarian aspects are concerned; the design of a useful article, as defined in this section, shall be considered a pictorial, graphic, or sculptural work only if, and only to the extent that, such design incorporates pictorial, graphic, or sculptural features that can be identified separately from, and are capable of existing independently of, the utilitarian aspects of the article."

Now, it does specifically mention diagrams and technical drawing, but I don't see how you can claim that any schematic has graphic features separate from the utilitarian aspects. In my eyes, a schematic is ONLY utilitarian.

A LOT of people are saying that circuit diagrams are covered, so I am gonna assume that I AM WRONG. Can someone please explain to me how the diagrams are covered by copyright law?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't really understand the definition of a "useful article" but the examples I can find relate to applying copyright to actual physical objects, for example here.
http://fwithrow.gordonrees.com/pubs/pdf/FinalHulleySybertCPY203.pdf

I think copyright for a schematic is covered by "Such works shall include works of artistic craftsmanship insofar as their form but not their mechanical or utilitarian aspects are concerned"
I take form to mean the drawing, which has some artistic element, is copyrightable but the information is contains, the utilitarian part isn't. Hence you can redraw a schematic so that it doesn't look like the original image and then it doesn't infringe copyright, even though it's the same from a utilitarian point of view.

I don't think this is the point as far as posting things on the forum is concerned though. You should only post things that you know you have the right to, otherwise you should assume that you don't. That's the way I see it anyway Smile
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metacohl



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

slacker wrote:
I don't really understand the definition of a "useful article" but the examples I can find relate to applying copyright to actual physical objects, for example here.
http://fwithrow.gordonrees.com/pubs/pdf/FinalHulleySybertCPY203.pdf


Thanks for the link, ill check it out. **Edit** Did you read that whole link you posted? In a lot of way I think it supports what I am saying.

Edit**So from what I understand, the actual circuit and the diagram are both "useful articles" and would be a graphic work ONLY if it satisfies the stipulation that the graphic work is some how separable from the useful article.

Basically, that there has to be some purely aesthetic aspect, separate from the informational aspect.

I don't see how it can be, all the diagram contains is the circuit. The whole function of the diagram is to describe (provide information) about the circuit. There is nothing of aesthetic or artistic value from what I understand.

Quote:

I think copyright for a schematic is covered by "Such works shall include works of artistic craftsmanship insofar as their form but not their mechanical or utilitarian aspects are concerned"
I take form to mean the drawing, which has some artistic element, is copyrightable but the information is contains, the utilitarian part isn't. Hence you can redraw a schematic so that it doesn't look like the original image and then it doesn't infringe copyright, even though it's the same from a utilitarian point of view.


This is exactly why I think it isn't covered, no artistic element. Only information.

Quote:

I don't think this is the point as far as posting things on the forum is concerned though. You should only post things that you know you have the right to, otherwise you should assume that you don't. That's the way I see it anyway Smile


Exactly, I would have posted the diagrams (with the moog logo's cut off of course Wink before this thread began, because I was confident that circuit diagrams are not copyrighted.

I mean, what if you and the admins are incorrect. Then you are denying the exchange of information from the public domain, doesn't seem very productive to the DIY spirit to me.
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metacohl



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Shit if somebody wants to post a court case where someone was charged with copyright infringement over a schematic I can move on lol.
I can't find any case examples, only ones with patented circuits.
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slacker



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Like I said I don't really know what I'm on about, seems like too much of it is open to interpretation, so I'll bow out.
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MoltenVoltage



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi everyone, very cool forum you have here!

Just thought I'd relay a little feedback I got from the US Copyright Office concerning PCB layouts and Schematics:

"Dear XXXXXXXXXXX:

I am writing about this registration because we cannot make a registration based on 2-Dimensional artwork. The term 2-Dimensional artwork would seem to refer to circuit boards which are not copyrightable. We can make a registration based on Technical drawings.

Copyright does not protect useful articles, which includes circuit boards, nor does it protect drawings depicting the design for a circuit board.

Technical drawing would describe the copyrightable work in the schematic drawings deposited as well as the copyrightable images on the box art."


While it is clear that they will not allow copyright of printed circuit board designs, it seems that copyright of schematics is permissible, since they allowed mine.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't get it... Why is this data removed, yet there are threads for ARP oscillators & filters, Korg filters & resonators, TR808 drums, and many other direct clones?

Did anyone save the data from this thread? Please PM me.

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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The Minimoog plans were pulled because the post consisted of the original Moog plans and pcb artwork.

The above mentioned list consists of Arp, who have gone out of business, and the rest have been reconstructed on veroboard, and presented as re-drawn layouts- which as far as electro-music.com are concerned, is acceptable.

Cappische? Smile

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tazer



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

so basically some one needs to re-draw the pcb layout then it will be able to be used?
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active



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

from my understanding it needs to be re-drawn and changed slightly, not just reprinted/handcopied for the original artwork/layout. think of it as using a team's logo for your own, but changing it enough so that it is "original", like putting a funny hat. or running a tracer somewhere else. cloning is a little bit different from a direct replica which is straight infringement. take a look at the whole picNOME/monome thing (for those unaware, it is a direct monome clone using a different chip so that it is still 'legal' to sell and profit off of.).
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