electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Articles  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links  |  Store
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
Live streaming at radio.electro-music.com

  host / artist show at your time
  Various Artists ~ 2014 Autumnal Equinox ~ live streaming radio ~
Please visit the chat
 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Nord Lead and Nord Wave synths
Different behaviour between the NL/NR versions
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: Wout Blommers
Page 1 of 3 [62 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page: 1, 2, 3 Next
Author Message
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:53 pm    Post subject:  Different behaviour between the NL/NR versions
Subject description: out of the box nord rack 2x vs. NL2 impressions
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi all

I finally received after exactly 2 months of waiting for a nord rack 2x.( I was surprised @ how small it was Smile!

After , one hour of playing here are my impression.
(my comparison references are based on playing on my friend's NL 2 for 2 month and coming up w. some crazy stuff using MaxMSP)

The 1st thing I immediately noticed is , Amp ENV. response. It does not respond like the NL2 . <- I don't no how to explain it other than , it's a if it leaks more or, it's not as direct. <- with the NL2 I even manage to create beats by simple (Amp attack) fast knob twisting. Not on this baby though, response is not fast enough ;-( .

2. It is definitively louder ! <- more leverage. <- this is on the AMP gain / and MAin volume.

3. more response w. the KBD track push button.

4. As for sound. It's only been an hour , but in general if feels like the sound is less direct, further away. Behind a plastic film or something.

I am a little sad I have to admit. But don't get me wrong this is still a great massive sounding synth, (and maybe I'm full of it? ) but these are my (pure /non cerebral /from the gut) first impressions. Maybe , I've gotten accustomed to the NL2, and would expect the same behavior ( after all it is called NL2X ) but surprisingly it does not behave the same?

Lastly, I really like the NL 2 sounds and would love to here the NL1. Also, it 's obvious I need to test drive this baby a bit more before reaching any serious conclusions but I can't help being a little doubtfull. I may have to purchase an older NL2 rack. Anyways , let's not over react Wink After all I did just get ,my long waited for , nord rack 2x!!

Thanks for reading , please feel free to comment.

phil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4517
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:43 pm    Post subject: The differences in sound between the NL/NR versions
Subject description: NL1 Vs other NL versions
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

original posted by phiol

Here is a rating I found on the internet somewhere.

I cannot agree or disagree since I've never tried the NL1. <- I ve only heard the infamous <-(for me anyways) NL1 super glitched out youtube vid by 909techno. [/i]* it was enough for me to run and buy a nord after seeing this vid.

ANyways , here is the rating , what do you guys think??

In a word or 2 the Nord lead 1 is by far the most organic and analogue of the 3 nord leads.
Its sound is a bit rougher round the edges and its functions are a perfect balance.I owned
the nord lead 2 and prefer the Nord lead 1 for its simplicity but above all for its character
.Slowly clavia have lost this with more and more 'perfect ' digital engineering.The Nord lead one
has those quirks you love in stuff . . . the same audio / character /quirk you find in the
ppg as oppoed to the xt , the same quirks analogue has . . . the Nord lead 1 is also some days
a bit like an old sidstation . . . its an odd and slightly rough around the edges synth that i
feel was superseded by less and less character and more and more 'clean ' and ' perfect ' sound
character.Dont get me wrong - the Nord lead 2 and 3 are nice synths but REALLY different character
at times to the Nord 1.If your looking for grainy , bitty , and almost sidstation like sounds
or for a bad (but good ) emulation of analogue then buy the mk1 . . .its a very cool and classic
synth . . . Ive used countless analogue and digital synths (in the region of 40-50 over nearly 20 years)
and if i had a choice for both chilled and edgy sounds i would buy the Mk 1 !i wuld own the mk3 of course .

thanks

phil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4517
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:04 am    Post subject:
Subject description: A reply
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phiol wrote:
I finally received after exactly 2 months of waiting for a nord rack 2x.( I was surprised @ how small it was !
Yep! I know. Couldn't find mine and months later I found it underneath my cell phone Wink
Quote:
After , one hour of playing here are my impression. (my comparison references are based on playing on my friend's NL 2 for 2 month and coming up w. some crazy stuff using MaxMSP)
The 1st thing I immediately noticed is , Amp ENV. response. It does not respond like the NL2 . <- I don't no how to explain it other than , it's a if it leaks more or, it's not as direct. <- with the NL2 I even manage to create beats by simple (Amp attack) fast knob twisting. Not on this baby though, response is not fast enough ;-( .
I don't know exactly how to interpretate this, but I assume you mean the physical movements of the knob don't feel the same. Beware of the fact new potmeters turn much more heavier then the ones serving many years. Some pots on my heavily used Nordlead2 I can almost blow around Wink I also wonder how you change these Attacks in real time and what is the effect on the sound. Is it possible you post a mp3 of this playing technique?
Quote:
2. It is definitively louder ! <- more leverage. <- this is on the AMP gain / and MAin volume.
This could be subjective, but on the other hand the NordLead2X does have other DAC's.
Quote:
3. more response w. the KBD track push button.
Which one? Osc2 or Filter tracking? Is it a way 'sticky'? This will go away when using. The button could be fitted to narrow in the Panel hole. Also here, what is the result sound wise?
Quote:
4. As for sound. It's only been an hour , but in general if feels like the sound is less direct, further away. Behind a plastic film or something.
That's a new way to describe it Smile Some say: more defined or cleaner or more smooth. This is a factor of the new DAC's. Some like it and others don't. BTW did you remove the plastic on the LCD yet? It wouldn't help...Wink
Quote:
I am a little sad I have to admit. But don't get me wrong this is still a great massive sounding synth, (and maybe I'm full of it? ) but these are my (pure /non cerebral /from the gut) first impressions. Maybe , I've gotten accustomed to the NL2, and would expect the same behavior ( after all it is called NL2X ) but surprisingly it does not behave the same?
There are even differences in the NordLead2 between different runs... If you want to hear this!
Quote:
Lastly, I really like the NL 2 sounds and would love to here the NL1. Also, it 's obvious I need to test drive this baby a bit more before reaching any serious conclusions but I can't help being a little doubtfull. I may have to purchase an older NL2 rack. Anyways , let's not over react After all I did just get ,my long waited for , nord rack 2x!!
I want to draw your attention to the fact people still think electronic devices are always the same! That's impossible, because there is always some tolerances in the specifications of the single components. Even the infamous 'monday morning' or 'friday afternoon' production items exist. Lets face it: some instruments last for years and will function always at their top, while others are a disaster right from the beginning. At the other hand I can assure you Clavia DMI has a very good testing run and their standard is rather high.
Quote:
Here is a rating I found on the internet somewhere.
I cannot agree or disagree since I've never tried the NL1. <- I ve only heard the infamous <-(for me anyways) NL1 super glitched out youtube vid by 909techno. [/i]* it was enough for me to run and buy a nord after seeing this vid.
Phil, I know this isn't your text, but the writer never tried and was running right to the shop to buy it...? Shocked
Quote:
ANyways , here is the rating , what do you guys think??
In a word or 2 the Nord lead 1 is by far the most organic and analogue of the 3 nord leads.
Just being subjective, aren't we Smile
Quote:
Its sound is a bit rougher round the edges and its functions are a perfect balance.I owned the nord lead 2 and prefer the Nord lead 1 for its simplicity but above all for its character.
.Slowly clavia have lost this with more and more 'perfect ' digital engineering.The Nord lead one has those quirks you love in stuff . . . the same audio / character /quirk you find in the ppg as oppoed to the xt , the same quirks analogue has . . . the Nord lead 1 is also some days
a bit like an old sidstation . . . its an odd and slightly rough around the edges synth that i feel was superseded by less and less character and more and more 'clean ' and ' perfect ' sound character. Dont get me wrong - the Nord lead 2 and 3 are nice synths but REALLY different character at times to the Nord 1.If your looking for grainy , bitty , and almost sidstation like sounds or for a bad (but good ) emulation of analogue then buy the mk1 . . .
This guy could be very right, only... What he doesn't tell is the components used in the Nordlead/NordRack aren't that stable as in the NordLead/NordLead2 and 2X. After some years special the DAC's are drifted towards much more distortion, which can be trimmed out by a Nord Service point. They will get the Sid like sound out of your machine, if you want it to sound as it did the day you bought the machine. So buying an used NordLead/NordRack doesn't guarantee you the heavier sound. You have to search for it!

About the sound of the synthesizer...
As most of us probably know even when using only 27 parameters just a slight difference in the setting of 3 or 4 will result in another sound, where some parameters have a greater effect then others. Just a little bit more tolerance in a component can have the same effect, even when the synth is digital, but the ADC's and DAC's circuits aren't!
Quote:
its a very cool and classic synth . . .
It really is! It's still in production today, only with more up-to-date and more stable components.
Quote:
Ive used countless analogue and digital synths (in the region of 40-50 over nearly 20 years) and if i had a choice for both chilled and edgy sounds i would buy the Mk 1 !i wuld own the mk3 of course .
Well, I think the NordLead2X wasn't on the market yet when this text was written.

Wout
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi and thanks for responding Wout.

Quote:
-I don't know exactly how to interpretate this, but I assume you mean the physical movements of the knob don't feel the same.


No , I really mean the 4 parameter responses of the whole AMp Env. section. It's more lazy <-don't chop the sound as much ! <- deadly important for me . This is how I pilot the instrument for beats in the P(0-9) w. arp's on .

Quote:
Beware of the fact new potmeters turn much more heavier then the ones serving many years.


Yep, that a great thing. It feel more solid !!

Quote:
I also wonder how you change these Attacks in real time and what is the effect on the sound. Is it possible you post a mp3 of this


Yes,I could but really don't think one could spot it just be listening. w. so many thing going in beat recordings I did.

Maybe If i make a track w. a short percussive sound (arp 'on' in the 1 area)/ make go fast enough / play around fast w. the ATTack to make quasi-beats.
Finally, do this on my friend's NL2 and repeat on the NL2X. Make a clip of both for you to compare. <-maybe (just for fun) not tell you which is which, to see if you could notice.

I know for sure , I can tell that both machines interpret my hand movement differently.

Will try do this and try to get it to you by tomorrow. And before I have to give it back to my friend ;-(

phil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4517
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phiol wrote:
... Will try do this and try to get it to you by tomorrow.
Take your time!
Quote:
And before I have to give it back to my friend ;-(
That's what friends are for, aren't they (or aren't you)? Smile

Wout
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

here I've uploaded on zshare
the names are nord 2a / nord 2b (to see if you can identify the one w. the "saran wrap" over the sound when @ fast rate(<- clue Wink )

here are the links
http://www.zshare.net/download/5884142503fb8084/

http://www.zshare.net/download/5884184066f10a44/

thanks for the feed back

phil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4517
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

[moderator]Removed redundant post[/moderator]

I've found a computer which was so friendly to play the files Smile

As you were talking about a better control using the NL2 knobs, I should say file 2a is the NordLead2X and file 2b is the NordLead2.

I assume you are using a high Arpeggiator Rate and tweakig this at the same time you turn the Amp Attack? Also a very low Decay and no Sustain and Release? Maybe some parameters in the Velocity (Morph)...

Wout
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
msy2



Joined: May 21, 2007
Posts: 38
Location: united states

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To me, file A sounds "better" a bit more full to the sound and a bit darker?

However it took me a bit to realize they are not playing the same thing. Can you make to recordings of the same section of the music?

I put both files into ableton live, delayed one by 500 ms and then used the cross fader to switch back and forth. I assumed they were both the same and that I could then quickly hear the same section on each recording when i moved the cross fader.

I say:

A = lead 2
B = lead 2x

I was mainly listening to overall quality though. Regarding high frequency, I think they both sound the same in general, but A sounds more direct and perhaps a bit more low frequency at times (lesser convertors of the A?) - as if there is a very slight amount of down sampling (lower bit conversion) going on?

Interested to hear if I am correct.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
msy2



Joined: May 21, 2007
Posts: 38
Location: united states

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

good (or bad) news! I will soon have a lead 2. I already have a lead 1 and 2x.

i'm going to copy my patches to all three and record comparisions on all three.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Wout and everyone as well (sorry for the mp3 delay).

This 2x vs 2 is obsessing to the point where it's not even funny. I was really waiting for my 2x to start working on an album w. it. That's why it i'm overreacting. I feel represents my esthetics but not the other.

I had 3 questions.

1. Wout, would it be possible for my to post this on here? An ad I posted on craig's list. (if not please delete) Is it possible to trade on ebay?;
Hi ,
I just got (after waiting for 2 month of back ordered) a brand new nord rack 2x bought @ moog audio. The thing is, for these 2 months I was lucky enough to have a friend lend me his nord lead 2. <- So I got used to the sound and completely fell in love w. it.
Now I've had my nord rack2x for 2 days and even though it sound cleaner w. the 24 bit DAC,s and 20 voices, I prefer the rougher nord 2 (version without the x).

This is just a shot in the dark but I was hoping someone would be willing to trade. That would be great.

Thanks a lot for you interest.

2-3. I know it's possible to load nordlead1or2 patches on the nord2x but is this done trough sysex dumps?
If so, then sent over the internet to copy paste in software like SysEx Librarian then loading on the nord 2X.
Now, would this change the sound.
More , precisely would it make it behave like a nord1or2? Just wondering ?

Thanks a lot for your help.

phil

[/b]


nord 2a.mp3
 Description:
nord 2a

Download
 Filename:  nord 2a.mp3
 Filesize:  699 KB
 Downloaded:  344 Time(s)


nord 2b.mp3
 Description:
nord 2b

Download
 Filename:  nord 2b.mp3
 Filesize:  1.5 MB
 Downloaded:  313 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

woah !

I was advised in my email that there had been replies before my last POST.

WOUT!! you were dead on . Really dead on.
nord 2a is the 2x
nord 2b is the 2.

THen this confirms that I have a reason to overreact !! As I said in my last post, I feel the 2 is exactly what I feel represents the esthetics I'm aiming for.

What to do, I have this 2x on payments. ;-(

thanks for opinions guys this is great.

phil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4517
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phiol wrote:
... WOUT!! you were dead on . Really dead on.
It wasn't that difficult Smile You wrote about the 'feel of control' between the two machines, and it's clearly that the second file has much more control, more music in it. It's also much longer than the first one, so you gave it all away...
Sound wise it's almost impossible to detect any differences.
Sometimes when explaining the synthesizer to visitors in the museum where I voluntier people ask me if I'm able to predict what the sound will be when they are allowed to tweak the knobs. THE question everbody who is in sound design will ask once in a life time. But it is impossible. Only experiance can guide you a little.
Quote:
... What to do, I have this 2x on payments. ;-(
Well, there is a special forum at http://electro-music.com/forum/forum-22.html. I will leave your 'add' in your post, as it is part of a question, but do the trading in the forum mentioned above, although... I'm not a native speaker, but 'on payment' means you haven't paid the thing completely yet, so legally it isn't yours! Better wait until it is paid for...
Quote:
... this is great.
Thank you for making my day! I'm already busy tweaking the Lead with the Arpeggiator on full speed. Changing the sounds by LFO1 at normal Rates and being totally blown away how different the synth reacts using the Amp Attack and even the Amp Release, which introduces a new sound as if there is a second synth faded in Smile The NordLead still rocks!

About your question of using NL1 files in the NL2 or visa versa: yes, it's possible, although the parameters are not the same, of course. Just a little remark, there are only Factory Presets to the NordLead1! The NordLead2 and 2X have the same. Is there anybody who found a preset using the RingModulator...?

Wout
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
It wasn't that difficult Smile You wrote about the 'feel of control' between the two machines, and it's clearly that the second file has much more control, more music in it. It's also much longer than the first one, so you gave it all away...


I know, I realized that maybe the lenght would give it away.
Quote:

Sound wise it's almost impossible to detect any differences.


No listen to theses. (maybe I should do another). It's precisely in the fast rate that you hear it all. <- I got psycho sensitive to this by doing a lot of MaxMSP fast sample stuff. <- if sound clips loop points are not brought to 0, there will be clipping right. of course!
Well basically the same w. the nord. <- AND ONE THING I love to do w. sound is to create one out of another. (granular synthesis kind of) FAST triggering of a sound = frequency <- w. impure harmonically rich sound wave!.

Anyways, my point is that it is is obvious to me that the nord folk have implemented an algorithm that does exactly this; trapezoid back to zero as the lfo rate increases. of course it's all signal based for precision. <- in maxMSP nothing is done for you so, believe me you get all the flaws. <- PC simply aren't powerful enough when you start piling crazy combos of signal.
This is precisely , why after years of maxing I've decide to go half hardware. But Still keep max for brain control.

Anyways, back to the topic, there are 2 things you can clearly here (one I discovered tonight actually) .

The quality of the sound when at fast rates on the NL2/Amp attack combo<- almost become like a bowed instrument. REALLY I SHOULD OF SAID THAT BEFORE AND ASK EVERYONE TO TRY THIS; (MIMIC A BOW INTRUMENT). that's the 1st thing I did when I tried the 2X at the store. THat's how you can really test the behavior. On the 2x the sound is not smoothed out enough to become a tone.
Now the other thing I discovered tonight is that I can detect flickering sound. I here the digital steps being sent the changing parameters of a knob.

OK, Now I've made it a must to send an example of this to you. It occurs when certain low sound are present and you tweak the Amp/sustain.
Also, you here harmonic steps (like fast additive synthesis) when; perc sound a super fast rates / and tweaking the semi-tone knob. Surprisingly <- I never got this on the NL2 <- Again, I will give you an example of this.

Man I get this flickering when tweaking the volume on my cheap sony radio Rolling Eyes

Anyways, sadly I sound stubborn and hardheaded, but really that's really not what I want to come off as. I'm just surprised how different the behavior is. Sadly disappointed is all. I was so happy to have found a flawless synth in the NL2.

Thanks again for sharing your experienced nord ear.

Will send sound files soon

phiol
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4517
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Phiol,

Maybe I found the answer why you hear a difference between the two synths.
Just because you driving the synth towards the edge and I assume you use the Arpeggiator in very high speed, you hear the differences in number of Voices. The Nordlead2 has 16 where the NordLead2X has 20! The Amp Attack has a little bit more time until it is shut down by the next new Voice in line. This should be audible to our ears. Where you can play only 4 Voices in 2 you can play 5 Voices in 2X. The first Voice stays a little bit longer.

Note the Nordlead(1) has at the most only 12 Voices or maybe unexpanded only 4! There would be a difference for sure Smile

If you want to check out the two, just make four mono recordings, just from Slot A directed to Output A

1 NL2 - one note - Arpeggiator - no Unison
2 NL2 - one note - Arpeggiator - Unison
3 NL2X - one note - Arpeggiator - no Unison
3 NL2X - one note - Arpeggiator - Uniso2

Take a very simple Program, like no LFO1 (Amout=0), Arpeggiator and only change the Amp Attack, Decay and Release the same in every take.

To set both synth to the same parameter value, use the [Shift+LFI1-wave form] combination, which shows the parameter value in the LCD screen. To return to normal mode press the combination again.

Wout
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi wout
thanks for the nice tips. Not sure I understand what your suggesting. I don't know the nord well enough. I am a complete newbie.

Quote:
The Nordlead2 has 16 where the NordLead2X has 20! The Amp Attack has a little bit more time until it is shut down by the next new Voice in line


Do you mean, the Amp attack takes a little bit more time until it shuts down? <- when learning something a single word misunderstanding can be crucial for me.

Quote:
by the next new Voice in line

maybe i'm misunderstanding something but I am only using a single sound (bassdrum c1 of PCool (no unison). Does this single sound have multiple voices??
Quote:
This should be audible to our ears.

I think your on to something !!!

Quote:
Where you can play only 4 Voices in 2 you can play 5 Voices in 2X. The first Voice stays a little bit longer.

-As mentioned before, I am mostly interested in the Nord for the percussive sounds. <- Again isn't a single drum component just a single voice?
- What do you mean the voice stays on a little longer?

Quote:
Note the Nordlead(1) has at the most only 12 Voices

What do you mean by the most? <- you mean the less ?? right?

Quote:
There would be a difference for sure Smile

So you're saying I'm not crazy after all Wink

Will try what you suggest . The 1 slot one output. but just to let you know, I always use the earphone output.

Quote:
To set both synth to the same parameter value, use the [Shift+LFI1-wave form] combination, which shows the parameter value in the LCD screen. To return to normal mode press the combination again.


Did you mean LFO instead of LFI ? <-I'm asking seriously. I'm learning Wink

MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION!

Is there a way to dumb down the 2X to 16 voices. Man if I could dumb down my machine I would be golden.

many thanks

phiol
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
msy2



Joined: May 21, 2007
Posts: 38
Location: united states

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

try to record your max experiements with the nord set to mono mode. this will limit to one voice. will not sound the same as 16 or 24 but it is a way to see if the amp differences are due to voice number.

as far as i know, there is no way to limit a slot to x number of voices.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
msy2



Joined: May 21, 2007
Posts: 38
Location: united states

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

btw, i'm the one who made the super glitched out video. we were chatting on youtube a few days ago. i will record some comparisions between the 1, 2, and 2x when my 2 arrives.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey msy2

Good to see here, I believe I gave you the heads up on youtube to come and check this out.
Remember you're the one who got into this mess in the 1st place Wink !!

will try what you said and get back to you a.s.a.p.

phil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4517
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phiol wrote:
hi wout
thanks for the nice tips. Not sure I understand what your suggesting. I don't know the nord well enough. I am a complete newbie.
We all were Smile
phiol wrote:
Wout Blommers wrote:
The Nordlead2 has 16 where the NordLead2X has 20! The Amp Attack has a little bit more time until it is shut down by the next new Voice in line
Do you mean, the Amp attack takes a little bit more time until it shuts down? when learning something a single word misunderstanding can be crucial for me.
Indeed, this is rather crucial. The Attack is the time it takes for the Amplifier to reach a certain value. Once I did some mesurements on the NordLead2 to find these values. The list is published in the 'sound creation' thread in this forum. The time it takes to reach that particular value and the number of voices have something very important which each other. I'll try to explain.

First of all keep in mind your original remark was about the different reaction of the Amp Attack. So we can leave out the DAC's and the higher sample rate. This makes the sound only more clear or defined or what-ever Smile

The number of voices availlable. What does this mean? The Nordlead2 has 16 voices and has 'lowest note priority'. When a chord is played, so all notes are sounding at the same moment, when using only one Slot and no Unison (which divides the number of availlable voices by 2) 16 notes can be heard at the same time. As soon note number 17 is played, the first note will be set to mute to make that note number 17 sound. Note 18 will silence the second played note. Lowest note priority means that note is left out of this rule and will sound always, as long it is hold. This is how the NordLead is designed.

At this moment I will introduce an easy way to describe the parameter value by taking a clock as example. The knob totally turned anti clock wise > value 0 it's easier to say 'it is in the 7 o'clock position'. Value 127, which is totally to the right, one can say 'it's 5 o'clock'. In 7 o'clock the time it takes the volume to rise to its maximum is almost nothing, where 5 o'clock takes about 27 seconds.

Nothing will go wrong, until one goes into the extreme. Using LFO2 in Arpeggiator mode which is running at high speed (5 o'clock or a little earlier Wink the 7 o'clock attack time will be reached, but longer times won't. The arpeggiator will very quickly use all the availlable voices and have to mute the first one, which won't reach maximum! The same goes for all the next voices. More to 12 o'clock will make the sounds volume lower and lower, until it will stay very low, but still there. Probably the Attack doesn't start completely at zero Smile

Now, what is it yo had to keep in mind?
Right!
The different reaction of the knob...

First you play the NordLead2 and you set the knob as you like it to be. The attack rises to a certain value, until it is muted. Lets assume the setting is 11 o'clock. Now you can use the range from 7 o'clock to 11. Very short attacks to slower ones. Now when you are setting the NordLead2X to the same setting, 11 o'clock, it will be muted 4 voices later! So it rises a little longer. Having the same effect to attack time as in the NordLead2, it has to have a steeprer slope, so the knob has to be set to a lower time, say 10 o'clock. This means the useful range is smaller!

Wow!
Quote:
...
Wout Blommers wrote:
This should be audible to our ears.
I think your on to something !!!
Yes, I think so...
Quote:
So you're saying I'm not crazy after all Wink
Of course you are, extremist! Very Happy
Quote:
Wout Blommers wrote:
To set both synth to the same parameter value, use the [Shift+LFI1-wave form] combination, which shows the parameter value in the LCD screen. To return to normal mode press the combination again.
Did you mean LFO instead of LFI ? <-I'm asking seriously. I'm learning Wink
You are learning fast Very Happy
Quote:
MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION!
Is there a way to dumb down the 2X to 16 voices. Man if I could dumb down my machine I would be golden.
There is! Use two Slots (LEDs lit), but set the gain to zero, so the second Slot won't sound. It reduces the 20 voices to 10. This will increase the Amp Attack range. I tried it on the NordLead2 and I believe this works...

Wout

Last edited by Wout Blommers on Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4517
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

An illustration to my theory...

On the NordLead2 the red Attack line (second graph) is the effect you want to have. On the NordLead2X the same value will go as far as the blue line, because it will mute later. To make the Attack as long as the first sound, it has to be set as the green line. Note there is no Decay, no Sustain and no Release times. These are not important in making the sound.
This also gives an explanation why the sound is much louder Smile

Playing an Arpeggio chord and open up the release will result in only one note sustained: the lowest one.

Wout


SmallRange.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  31.49 KB
 Viewed:  11101 Time(s)

SmallRange.jpg


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout my friend you were right about everything.

Shocked I just can't believe it Razz , by turning on in add. slot B even C, the 2X reacts exactly like to 2. WOW! I might have found my baby Wink

I do understand how Amp Env. works, I mean you have to to built MSP patches. But really, taking the time and effort for clearing things up. <- prvious last email. (the one before the ADSR graph). But I got to admit it your paragraph has confuse me on a thing or two. But before ;

Quote:
once I did some measurements on the NordLead2 to find these values. The list is published in the 'sound creation' thread in this forum.

This seems like obsessive behavior to me Wink <- really I love it. Only in this manner can you really squeeze the juice out of an instrument. It's all about finding and exploiting what 's in the cracks !

Now for the confusion questions;

Quote:
The time it takes to reach that particular value and the number of voices have something very important which each other.

-Really? I thought the AMP ENV. was laid on top of that. like a sort of mask reveling sound and you have the choice of how you shape that mask regardless of how many voices. Similar to putting a piece of cardboard in front of a light, it doesn't matter if the light is 60W or 100W. you're still blocking it. But based on what you're saying the nord doesn't work like that. Isn't the ramp time based on an internal signal driven clocked? <- it would seem not?

Quote:
The Nordlead2 has 16 voices and has 'lowest note priority'

Hmm... I understand that in polyphony (16) you can have 16 sounds / and that each note added beyond will overwrite the 1st 2nd. etc. Played
But;
[/quote]Lowest note priority means that note is left out of this rule and will sound always, as long it is hold. This is how the NordLead is designed. What does that note stand for? One that is help by a sustain pedal or the (shift+hold) combo?

Here is the real confusion?
Quote:
Using LFO2 in Arpeggiator mode which is running at high speed (5 o'clock or a little earlier Wink the 7 o'clock attack time will be reached, but longer times won't. The arpeggiator will very quickly use all the availlable voices and have to mute the first one
 
Going w. your logic; If w. the Nord, the "held" notes are left out(unaffected) because of the lowest note priority system, why is it being added/counted into the voices at all?
Here you will get Why I'm confused;
-The Bassdrum (C1) is a single voice.
-Once it is triggered and released (not held) there is no addition of voice. right.
-Based on what you saying, having the LFO trigger that Bass Drum and having the "Arp range knob @ 1" This is not what is happening. Not triggering is being done. It Just sounds like triggering. Then, your telling me that the AMP ENV. waits until the end of the "20 voice" count before it starts it's task again? Again, why is the nord adding voices in the 1st place. It is in Hold mode. (Lowest note priority)

More precisely, what is the big difference in my interpretation of what is going on and what you're saying is: there is no fast triggering going on at all and but rather an iteration of 20 note that are being remembered. And if you put the "Arp range" knob in position 4. The other voices triggered will also be added.

Moving on.
Quote:
This means the useful range is smaller!
.
Yes to my past disappointment until you fixed it. Again, i new I wasn't crazy.

Quote:
Use two Slots (LEDs lit), but set the gain to zero, so the second Slot won't sound. It reduces the 20 voices to 10. This will increase the Amp Attack range. I tried it on the NordLead2 and I believe this works...


So in order for reduce to 10 voices (for P0-9) <- is it simply by turning on a second slot or does this 2nd slot also need to have the Arp Held down?

SO would having 4 slots turned on/ 3 on mute, make Slot A act like a 2-4 voice NL 1 Wink

SO, a personal conclusion would be; as for what I want to use the NL for ,(rhythm), the extra 20 voices expansion is a bad thing.

Thank you so very much. This is very generous of you. Priceless info. I hope you're also learning a thing or two.

Very excited to hear your reply.

phiol
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4517
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi phoil,

I won't react on all the things you wrote and will try to leave out most quotations, because the post will be to confusing to other readers...
phiol wrote:
... Only in this manner can you really squeeze the juice out of an instrument. It's all about finding and exploiting what 's in the cracks !
Boy, I hope you're not married! Very Happy
Quote:
.... I thought the AMP ENV. was laid on top of that. like a sort of mask reveling sound and you have the choice of how you shape that mask regardless of how many voices. Similar to putting a piece of cardboard in front of a light, it doesn't matter if the light is 60W or 100W. you're still blocking it.
The Amp Envelope is not a global feature to each Slot, but to each voice of its own. If you play a long note using a long Release, I mean a really long Release (more then 10 sec) and during this Release time you play a new key, the first one will still be slowly fading away. It's just the other end of the extemities, you know, that eara you seldom hear Wink
Quote:
But based on what you're saying the nord doesn't work like that. Isn't the ramp time based on an internal signal driven clocked? <- it would seem not?
I don't know how Clavia implemented this in the Algorithms (I don't want to know Smile but maybe somebody else could shine some light on this...
Quote:
Wout Blommers wrote:
Lowest note priority means that note is left out of this rule and will sound always, as long it is hold. This is how the NordLead is designed.
What does that note stand for? One that is help by a sustain pedal or the (shift+hold) combo?
As long a key is 'hold'. Normally the low note priority rule is only important when the voices have the be divided over more Slots and using the Unison. In the NordLead2 there are 4 voices availlable in each Slot (4 actave, as an extremity), the lowest (hold) note in each Slot will be sounding and will obstruct a new pressed one!
Quote:
... Going w. your logic; If w. the Nord, the "held" notes are left out(unaffected) because of the lowest note priority system, why is it being added/counted into the voices at all?
Not "held" keys/notes, but only the lowest one, when held!
Quote:
Here you will get Why I'm confused;
-The Bassdrum (C1) is a single voice.
-Once it is triggered and released (not held) there is no addition of voice. right.
-Based on what you saying, having the LFO trigger that Bass Drum ...
An LFO can't trigger a note, the Arpeggiator can...
Quote:
... and having the "Arp range knob @ 1" ...
This is about the 8 o'clock position? Smile
Quote:
... This is not what is happening. Not triggering is being done. It Just sounds like triggering. Then, your telling me that the AMP ENV. waits until the end of the "20 voice" count before it starts it's task again? Again, why is the nord adding voices in the 1st place. It is in Hold mode. (Lowest note priority)
As long the availlable voices are there, all goes well.
Quote:
More precisely, what is the big difference in my interpretation of what is going on and what you're saying is: there is no fast triggering going on at all and but rather an iteration of 20 note that are being remembered. And if you put the "Arp range" knob in position 4. The other voices triggered will also be added.
The Arpeggiator is triggering every voice, even in Percussion mode. You have to change the Percussion set up by using the black keys, activate the Arp and activate [Hold]. You have to do this to all eight Perussion zones by hand and the Hold function is never saved, so each time you'll need it...
Quote:
Moving on.
I'll follow Smile
Quote:
Wout Blommers wrote:
This means the useful range is smaller!
Yes to my past disappointment until you fixed it. Again, i new I wasn't crazy.
Nobody said that! In fact, you have a set of wonderful ears and you are a very good listener. Important, when being in sound design!
Quote:
... So in order for reduce to 10 voices (for P0-9) <- is it simply by turning on a second slot or does this 2nd slot also need to have the Arp Held down?
As long as you shut down the Gain, it's not important what happens in the mute Slot(s). Only be carefull with the Unison, though...
I think it's better to start a new thread when the Percussion mode is involved. Other members could find it confusing...
Quote:
SO would having 4 slots turned on/ 3 on mute, make Slot A act like a 2-4 voice NL 1 Wink
Don't talk about the NordLead1! Nobody talks about the NordLead1! It's like the Spanish Inquisition (Freely quoting Monty Phyton).
Quote:
SO, a personal conclusion would be; as for what I want to use the NL for ,(rhythm), the extra 20 voices expansion is a bad thing.
Well, it does work, doesn't it?
Quote:
... I hope you're also learning a thing or two.
I surely do.

Wout
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Boy, I hope you're not married! Very Happy.
 
I practically am and she's freaking out.

But let me explain in a phrase. I've been a musician (as profession) for 17 years.After so many year perfecting my technique on guitar 'til I finally felt it was good I was handicaped for the past 6 years w. bad tendonitis. (I've done everything to fix it. But I'm stuck w. it. that's why I turned to computers and MAX MSP.
With, gear, (the gear is the player/performer) and you are the conductor. That's why i want my gear to perform exactly like I want it to. It's needs to represent me. I swear, on guitar I was doing this olympic-training style. Well I guess like all professional musicians do.

Anyways, Thanks a lot msys2 and WOUT, you,ve been extremely helpfull and generous of your time to help me in my Quest.

Thanks again.

Last note: Today, I was about 150US$ and an hour away from owning a nord rack version 1 on ebay. Arrg.

Thanks

phiol
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4517
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phiol wrote:
... and WOUT, you,ve been extremely helpfull and generous of your time to help me in my Quest.
And you're still not there! Man, a long way to go...

I knew there was something hidden in that high speed LFO/Arpeggiator corner, but I didn't knew about the Amp Attack! I was surprised when I found out when the Attack time was increased suddenly the sound jumps to something completely different. Maybe it has to do with the muting of the voices, I don't figured it out yet.
Anyway, I have the same feeling as when I learned about Einstein and his theory: in the extreme normal rules don't count anymore Wink

For those who are wondering what's all about a small example of the sounds which can be obtained by this settings. There was a four note chord in Hold and the rest is all tweaking, one knob at the time. The file starts with a slow Arpeggiator, which will speed up and at the end will slow down again. If the patterns looks like to change in speed it's not done by the Arp rate.

I apologize for the bad mp3 (22 kHz Embarassed )

Wout


RattleBandMusicExpo.mp3
 Description:
RatlleBand - Synth only

Download
 Filename:  RattleBandMusicExpo.mp3
 Filesize:  4.35 MB
 Downloaded:  339 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4517
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 12

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phiol wrote:
Wout Blommers wrote:
Using LFO2 in Arpeggiator mode which is running at high speed (5 o'clock or a little earlier Wink the 7 o'clock attack time will be reached, but longer times won't. The arpeggiator will very quickly use all the availlable voices and have to mute the first one
Going w. your logic; If w. the Nord, the "held" notes are left out(unaffected) because of the lowest note priority system, why is it being added/counted into the voices at all?
Here you will get Why I'm confused;
-The Bassdrum (C1) is a single voice.
-Once it is triggered and released (not held) there is no addition of voice. right.
As soon as the key is released the voice is availlable to make place for the next one if needed.
Quote:
-Based on what you saying, having the LFO trigger that Bass Drum and having the "Arp range knob @ 1" This is not what is happening. Not triggering is being done. It Just sounds like triggering.
The Arpeggiator will trigger, if activated. In the @1 position it will only trigger the sound which is controlled by the key. In @2 position it will also trigger the sound one octave higher, as it looks like, in half speed. so the next 'keyboard zone is skipped...[qoute] Then, your telling me that the AMP ENV. waits until the end of the "20 voice" count before it starts it's task again? Again, why is the nord adding voices in the 1st place. It is in Hold mode. (Lowest note priority)[/quote]Each pressed note will trigger a voice using its own AmpEnv. In the NL2X the 21st will be played at the same 'location' as the 1st. If the AmpEnv isn't finished yet, it will be muted at once and start the new sound. This also happens using very long Amp Release times.
Quote:
More precisely, what is the big difference in my interpretation of what is going on and what you're saying is: there is no fast triggering going on at all and but rather an iteration of 20 note that are being remembered. And if you put the "Arp range" knob in position 4. The other voices triggered will also be added.
Yes, every played note is a new one in the Arpeggiator.

Using the Percussion mode there are some other rules. The LFO's are global and not bound to just one voice. In practice it means the global LFO will use the Rate and Amount which are under the last played key, so if you program a bass drum in a slow Rate and a side drum in a much higher speed, as the moment the side will be triggered and the bass drum is hold in any way (keeping the key pressed or the HOLD mode), the bass drum will be triggered in the higher Rate. It makes sense to set all the Arpeggiators to the same Rate, which can be done by [Shift+LFO1-wave form] to see the value in the LCD screen.

The Percussion mode is a complete different story. In short: difficult to tweak (not as in the sound example above), but easy to fire up sounds at every moment you need them.

Wout

Last edited by Wout Blommers on Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:09 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: Wout Blommers
Page 1 of 3 [62 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Goto page: 1, 2, 3 Next
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Nord Lead and Nord Wave synths
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
e-m mkii

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from
our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use