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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Acxel II
Acxel II
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BobTheDog



Joined: Feb 28, 2005
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes but you may as well add a few years on by not using a very out of data cpu to begin with!
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TekniK



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BobTheDog wrote:
Yes but you may as well add a few years on by not using a very out of data cpu to begin with!


yes,but a wide spread commercial cpu should be not a problem,like i wrote the custom chip they use is another thing..

btw,maybe its time to get spare cards for u capy as u know those dsp's used are older as the acxel I machine i think lol

dsp's in the first protools nubus cards where the same as in the synclavier,so...
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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thats why I have a Pacarana.
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TekniK



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BobTheDog wrote:
Thats why I have a Pacarana.


cool,could u tell us what they use inside as dsp's?
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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have asked and it is secret under NDA.

We think it may well be some new TI dsp of some kind.

Hopefully soon they will tell us.

Cheers

Andy
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Fidgit



Joined: Jul 13, 2006
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

my point was not even about replacement of defective components when they fail one day, it was much more about using already today outdated CPUs / processors in products announced to be released somewhen in the future.

in this context, the paca(rana) DSPs are unknown and protected by an NDA. this NDA is supposed to time out on a defined date in the future. however, considering the computing power they make available one can't avoid thinking that they are not 5-10 years old as an intel P4... Wink

but however - the acxelII may become a great device. let's wait and give it a fair chance. kudos & respect, yo. Smile
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TekniK



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fidgit wrote:
my point was not even about replacement of defective components when they fail one day, it was much more about using already today outdated CPUs / processors in products announced to be released somewhen in the future.

in this context, the paca(rana) DSPs are unknown and protected by an NDA. this NDA is supposed to time out on a defined date in the future. however, considering the computing power they make available one can't avoid thinking that they are not 5-10 years old as an intel P4... Wink

but however - the acxelII may become a great device. let's wait and give it a fair chance. kudos & respect, yo. Smile


Chances are high those dsp's in the pacarana are old and its very normal,in fact u never can have the latest technology used,u have to base on products that have proof themself already + the time you lose on the r&d of the product u want to use them.

+ its perfectly possible they use an very old dsp for general tasking etc along with the newer one like idarca with the p4

That kyma woman never replyd when u ask what they use as dsp's,they never did even when asking whats in the capy320 years ago,and one reason probably is because its old shit inside.

Trying to hide to get out max commercialy is stupid.
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TekniK



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BobTheDog wrote:
I have asked and it is secret under NDA.

We think it may well be some new TI dsp of some kind.

Hopefully soon they will tell us.

Cheers

Andy


u did not have to ask it,you just had to open the unit lol
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Fidgit



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yes, it's possible. we can't prove it or the opposit at the moment, the coolers on the paca(rana) DSPs refrain us from checking the label on the processors underneath.
i still don't believe the paca(rana) DSPs are old - just because of the sheer power they deliver compared to the older capybara 320 hardware and the amount of DSPs required to do the same task there.
but possible it is, sure. Smile

however - the DSPs in the capybara 320 have no fans on them and owners of these units could easily check by opening the box and reading the processor label. i don't have a capybara anymore.
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TekniK



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fidgit wrote:
yes, it's possible. we can't prove it or the opposit at the moment, the coolers on the paca(rana) DSPs refrain us from checking the label on the processors underneath.
i still don't believe the paca(rana) DSPs are old - just because of the sheer power they deliver compared to the older capybara 320 hardware and the amount of DSPs required to do the same task there.
but possible it is, sure. Smile

however - the DSPs in the capybara 320 have no fans on them and owners of these units could easily check by opening the box and reading the processor label. i don't have a capybara anymore.


Its best u don't touch it,when is say old for the pacarana i mean 4-5 years max ,but those in the capy 320 where already veeery old 5 years ago!
(i saw on a close-up pic i think ,but don't know remember exactly the model of dsp anymore)

So the price/power for a full unit then whas exagerated
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Fidgit



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

TekniK wrote:

So the price/power for a full unit then whas exagerated


regarding the hardware yes, definitely.
but there is still some software behind, new sophisticated algorithms and updates released without additional fees for the owners. these have to be paid somehow as well of course.
in the case of the acxel II, these updates (from the user forum) cost $650.- Wink
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Why hasn't anyone asked this on the axcel2 forum yet?
I think that might be a better place to ask questions anyway.
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TekniK



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fidgit wrote:
TekniK wrote:

So the price/power for a full unit then whas exagerated


regarding the hardware yes, definitely.
but there is still some software behind, new sophisticated algorithms and updates released without additional fees for the owners. these have to be paid somehow as well of course.
in the case of the acxel II, these updates (from the user forum) cost $650.- Wink


i think for 650usd get only support and maybe sounds for 3 years,new 'models or tools' for (re)synthesis will cost xtra on top imo

i agree its getting expensive if you want the full pack,anyhow before i spend 1USD on this i want to see the unit working.
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NoiseLab



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well on the Pacarana you have 4 DSP's with '2GB of sample RAM' and that sounds pretty new to me!

The only thing that interest me about the Acxel II is the Grapher!

I use Kyma for ten years now (Capy320) and I think it's good that the Acxel system revives again but I'm not convinced!

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DrJustice



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The Capybara 320 uses Motorola (now called Freescale) DSP56309 @ 80 MHz, four of them in the basic unit. These DSP's are likely to be available off the shelf for many years to come. Motorola 56xxxx DSPs are a very safe bet since they're the worlds most prolific DSPs, used in 'everything', and the latest ones are still code compatible with the ones from before the war.

I, for one, will not buy an expensive DSP based product without knowing which DSP's it's based on. As the tired old car analogies go, I'll not buy a car with a 'secret' engine.

AFAIK the Acxel2 uses a huge FPGA for the 256 cell RPP, and an ASIC for the upcoming 1024 cell one to be used in the Studio version. In theory that means their processor is not locked to a particular chip, it could be (re)implemented in any large enough FPGA or ASIC. Otherwise there's a few holes in the product information currently (I'm trying to find out more about it), but this may change closer to the launch.

DJ
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DrJustice



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think the Acxel2 is quite exciting and Idarca should be commended for making a 'different' synthesizer. I'm not too fond of the support charge and limited forum access, though. If they want to use that to limit their users to academic institutions and such, that would be sad, but I don't believe this to be the case. I hope real musicians will use Acxels to make music that we can hear.

In all fairness I have to say that their closest competitor, Symbolic Sound, also has a closed forum and does not publish any detailed product information, a policy I don't care for either. I'll be watching the developments of Acxel and Kyma with interest - one of them may get my money some time, but only if I feel good about their policies and support. Both are exciting products with somewhat strange circumstances...

DJ
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TekniK



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

another thing that am worried abouth is that it seems to be 1280/16v and not 1280x16v knowing the acxel 1 was 1024/8v (combined in blocks of 32)

that means x2 power after 20y



i hope am wrong..
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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You can get hold of the SymbolicSound Kyma documentation but it is not easy to find out anything about the hardware at the moment, hopefully this will change soon.

The closed kyma forum is a little strange but I found SymbolicSound would answer all my questions via email rapidly and are extremely helpful both before and after the purchase.

For instance when I was initially having problems Karl actually rang me up to talk about it, you don't see that sort of thing much!

I will make a post on the Acxell forum about support cost.

Andy
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DrJustice



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

TekniK wrote:
another thing that am worried abouth is that it seems to be 1280/16v and not 1280x16v knowing the acxel 1 was 1024/8v (combined in blocks of 32)

that means x2 power after 20y



i hope am wrong..

Yes... that's one of the things I'm trying to find out about: how are the 50-200 GOPS in a 256 cell put to use? Is there really a maximum of 256 partials to go among the 16 voices? Am I missing something here - is each cell capable of 16 voices? Can the stand alone Rack unit be upgraded?

BTW: The different specs for the Studio version say 1024 and 1280 cells.

DJ
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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I tried to post on the forum but even though I now have a user I don't seem to be able to read or post anything.

Anyone else?
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NoiseLab



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The Pacarana DSP's are not from the Motorola 56xxxx family. As far as I know an transition to something 'secret'! Just like Apple did from PowerPC to Intel!

For me the software is way more important than the newest hardware! Kyma just works and I don't have to wait for future promises about new software options, they allways come as a surprise!

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Last edited by NoiseLab on Fri May 29, 2009 5:29 am; edited 2 times in total
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DrJustice



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BobTheDog wrote:
You can get hold of the SymbolicSound Kyma documentation but it is not easy to find out anything about the hardware at the moment, hopefully this will change soon.

I know that you can buy the Kyma manual and get the price of it deducted from a system, but this being the only way to get to know anything is not good enough IMO. Why not publish some real info to attract customers, and why not have public (read only) access to the forums? Having to buy products before you can find out about them and the support is hard for me to accept. That being said, I hear that Symbolic Sound offer very good customer service and support to their users, which sounds promising. Besides, here at EM we have friendly members who willingly share their experiences of such systems thumleft

DJ
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DrJustice



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

NoiseLab wrote:
The Pacarana DSP's are not from the Motorola 56xxxx family. As far as I know the new DSP's where an transition to something 'secret'! Just like Apple did from PowerPC to Intel!

It has been speculated that they use Motorola C6xxx DSP's. But Analog Devices TigerSharc's would be swell too. If I were to write DSP assembly code, I'd prefer the latter.

Quote:
For me the software is way more important than the newest hardware! And working in Kyma is pretty awesome. Kyma just works and I don't have to wait for future promises about new software options, they always come as a surprise!

I agree that the software is absolutely crucial. But the hardware is intersting too. If the software defines the capability, the hardware defines the capacity. And with very capable software, you soon find yourself doing things that require capacity Smile

DJ
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NoiseLab



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DrJustice wrote:
I agree that the software is absolutely crucial. But the hardware is intersting too. If the software defines the capability, the hardware defines the capacity. And with very capable software, you soon find yourself doing things that require capacity Smile


Thats correct, I started with a basic Capy320 and since three years it's fully loaded! And yes, somewhere in the future I'll will going to add the Pacarana!

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TekniK



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DrJustice wrote:
You but this being the only way to get to know anything is not good enough IMO. Why not publish some real info to attract customers, and why not have public (read only) access to the forums? Having to buy products before you can find out about them and the support is hard for me to accept.
DJ
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And when u start a debate with an kyma user they alway says its an amazing machine,but when u ask to post a track or something that sounds so unique like they pretend u get nothing.

The biggest negative thing abouth kyma is that it has not real time algorithm reconfig,so each time u change a combination the system (pc) transfer it to the unit (capy) and this takes times how more complex how longer u wait,if u are actualy an experimenter and not a preset guy (like most kyma users) then its un-usable

this u have not with the acxel Pierre told when i did ask it on the forum!
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