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mosc
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
corporations are run by social criminals.


Five years ago I would have argued vigorously against this. I have been an executive at some of the bigest and most respected corporations; AT&T, Bell Labs, Lucent, and IBM. I would have said that there are a few bad apples, but most corporate execs are decent people who are trying to make the world better through their work. Now, I am forced by experience to agree with you. The good people get taken advantage of and manipulated out of the way. In due time the shit rises to the top. pale
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Cyxeris



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The biggest problem I have with corporations is the lack of social conscience. Remember the thread regarding the Colombia astronauts, and dying in the service of humanity? Corporations yield more potential than even governments do with regards to the betterment of mankind, and yet...

One thing that I would like to note, giving credit where credit is due, especially since this has for the most part been taking place outside of the public eye, is the effort of Bill Gates. For those who have not stumbled upon his efforts in Africa over the last few years, I highly recomend that you look into this. I will help start you on your way...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/africa/
http://www.iht.com/articles/111121.html
http://archive.wn.com/2004/01/16/1400/p/80/19ea4d7fe32831.html
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m4PRN/2002_Feb_24/83223873/p1/article.jhtml
http://www.salon.com/health/log/1999/12/14/gates_vaccines/

And how many people do you think are aware of this?

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bachus



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
bachus wrote:
corporations are run by social criminals.



Please note that I gave a context that you have removed "Corporations have exploited that human failing " I'm watching you Howard Wink

Like all generalizations that's not true. But it is becoming increasingly true.

Cyxeris wrote:
The biggest problem I have with corporations is the lack of social conscience.


That's what I meant by "social criminals." When lack of social conscience destroys countless lives it rises to the level of social crime.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What is bad and what is good. Organizaions have the same failings as humans have. Like.. in theory the catholic church is a good thing, yet historically it has funded, supported or even executed acts which at best can be called genocide. There is a sort of historical line here. What is corporations? What is states? Parts of the feudal societies of Europe rather split into states and businesses. In many countries we can now pretty much say that the state is driven by its corporations and their needs. The state can only control these by ethical guidelines and legislation. Is this bad? Even if some of the wealth can be used for "nice" purposes, what is really the nature of the corporations? And .. can the sum of decent people hired by a corporation change the nature of the corporation? The same question can possibly be applied on the social experiments performed in Nazi Germany, China and even in Cambodia. I will not suggest an easy answer. Too many political theorists and revolutionaries have come up with answers which definitively have NOT helped us much.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
I'm watching you Howard Wink


Yes, I figured you'd catch that one. You are right, it's best to avoid generalizations. Of course, there are exceptions. Wink

Interesting comment about Bill Gates. I've found that there are circumstances that significantly change corporate culture.

One is what I call the benevolent monopoly, like AT&T had before the breakup. They were rolling in money and had virtually no competition. They were generous to their employees, their communities, their nation and the world. They supported the arts and pure research. They were a very positive force in making the world better. All this changed in the early 1980's when Judge Greene broke up the company.

The other circumstance is when there is either family ownership, or when there is strong leadership by a company founder who has vision. Microsoft falls into this category. After Gates leaves, the situation there will gradually change and the nature of human beings will play out.

The large signal modulator on this is economics. When times are good, people are less selfish and aggressive. When times are bad, people follow suit.

How do these corporations actually change? Reorganization. When they are growing they are organizing; competency is usually given more responsibility. When they are shrinking, they reorganize; the shit rises to the top.
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bachus



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In hindsight it seems I've hijacked electro80's more relevant thread and for that I apologize. Embarassed And it seems he has reestablished the proper thread subject under the title "Digital pimps and the new order of things." I will do my best to be more conscious of what I'm doing.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yikes! This is the first topic hijacking we've every had here. Shocked
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Cyxeris



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Yikes! This is the first topic hijacking we've every had here. Shocked


Not only that, but the utilization of the term "hijacking" I find... suspect!

I'm watching you bachus! Twisted Evil

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Shocked
Very Happy
Actually, the "pimps" threadd is an old one.. some of the old threads are being resurrected now and then.

But please feel free to add comments you feel are releveant.

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bachus



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am just an amateur and even when young and hopeful didn't think I could make a living with my music. Like man, Stravinsky couldn't make a living with his music at that time! I knew I couldn't. So I took Charles Ives as my model. The upshot of this is that my thoughts in this matter of music and money are necessarily out of tune with those working in genres that have some hope of financial success.

That said, I think that in many areas, bigness in business is very bad for humanity. Music should never have become an industry. But, as an ex Libertarian turned far-left eco-Democrat it's still hard for me to see how a society would morally decide which areas should be excluded from industry.
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Cyxeris



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm not sure that it can, but you, as an individual, and as a voter (sigh) can at least decide for yourself.
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Dana Countryman



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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 1:50 pm    Post subject: Don Henley, etc.
Subject description: Don Henley, etc.
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I'm not going to even LOOK at any of the other responses to this.

Okay, I agree with Henley about greed and lack of imagination in the music industry. But to a great degree, that stuff has gone on for a long time.

Back in the '70s, secretaries at music publishers, with no music experience, screened songs, and in the '50s, record labels routinely scammed trusting artists out of most of their royalties. The greed thing's been around a while. I lived in Hollywood, so I should know.

The really bad thing that's changed is the lack of imagination by the major labels, and taking a chance on an artist that's doing something unique and different. Particularly, those who are not "pretty".

I could name off a list of artists who would not have a chance in Hell of getting a major record deal now:

Ricky Lee Jones, Tom Waits, Seals and Crofts, Ella Fitzgerald, Merle Haggard, Willie Nelson, Phoebe Snow, Joe Jackson, Randy Newman, Lou Reed, Mel Torme, and the Rolling Stones. And that's just off the top of my head, and based on the fact, that none of them look beautiful, or are handsome male models, as the trend is now.

Heck, "American Idol" won't even let you ON the show, if you're older than 30 (!) But I digress....

I do disagree with Don Henley about one thing: that P2P file sharing hurts all recording artists.

IMHO, most recording artists are the lesser-known musicians like myself and all the bands you probably know. The ones who are struggling to get recognition, and busting their butts, doing it.

Many of the up and coming recording artists today, are happy to GIVE away their music, if only SOMEONE will listen to it (!) I think MySpace, YouTube and Facebook are great tools, that helps put new music directly in the hands of the listeners. Of course, the big record companies are also surfing these sites, and occasionally signing artists they find here, IF they're young and attractive! Here we go again....

If you ask me, the only recording artists really getting hurt by P2P are the Big, Famous ones, who sell their stuff in millions: the Elton Johns, Britneys, and Puff Daddies.

The rest of us will never be impacted by people stealing our music, which is why I don't bother anymore to contact Rapidshare to have them take down the files that inevitably get posted of one of my CDs.

Is it stealing? Yes. But is it really hurting you, or your next door neighbor's band? No.

Look at it as free advertising for artists. It generates interest in seeing them perform live.

The Record Companies had it so good, for so long. I think they are getting exactly what they deserve. Which is diddlysquat.

Guess they'll have to try a little harder to create revenue now: like dredging up film usage, commercials and Ringtones from their artists' work, eh?

The days of being forced to pay $16 for a CD are over. Finally.

- Dana Countryman
http://www.danacountryman.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah, one from the archives - 5 years old! Interesting thread, thanks for bumping. I've been missing these ideological debates.

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"Music Industry" - isn't that an oxymoron?
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