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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
ReaktorG2
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bantri



Joined: May 15, 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:27 am    Post subject: ReaktorG2
Subject description: G2 Interface porting to Reaktor
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V02
Beginning work, starting to check interface custom buttons and knobs.
First tests on the clock generator block.
Some tests with the filter window.
Colored panels checking.


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Antimon



Joined: Jan 18, 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Looks neat! Very Happy It would be interesting to hear how this works out. What kind of performance do you expect from this - i.e. how many oscillators, filters etc you can put it in before the processor maxes out (I guess this is totally up to how Reaktor work - I haven't tried it out)? At least you have the long macro names sorted out. Wink

/Stefan

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bantri



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I was never able to reach reaktor maximum limits, but currently my AMD 2200 single core CPU can handle a maximum of 400 sinewave oscillators mixed simultaneously using 44100 sample rate.

The G2 demo running the equivalent model on the same CPU, reaches the limit with 50 sinewaves.

Also note that reaktor uses floating point calculations which are heavier (but much better) than 24 bit integer calculations done in G2.

but my main objective is:

"To get around G2 limitations, still using compatible/equivalent modules."

The G2 interface is imensely more productive, but it has several limitations, that reaktor can solve.

To name a few...
-It is not a VSTi
-It does not have a sampling module
-It has only 4 Ins and 4 Outs
-It does not have the ability to open each module and make changes in graphic design and dsp algorithms.
-It does not have an oscilloscope module
-The VU meters are too small
-It has no numerical value metering display
-The filters have a maximum slope of 36 dB and the majority of them is limited to 24 dB
-The sequencer modules don´t have backward stepping
-The memory amount in the delay modules is too small
-The clock generator has no blinking led
-The logic 8-counter does not have backward stepping
-There is no macro capability (modules containing modules)
etc...
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Antimon



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, those are all valid points. I've been toying with the idea to make a Java/ChucK clone (Java for the GUI, ChucK for the sound). ChucK doesn't have all the tools to mimic everything that the G2 does, but it might still result on something usable. Not sure I'm going to invest in Reaktor for this, but it sure will be interest to see what you end up with. Smile

/Stefan

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bantri



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:27 pm    Post subject: ReaktorG2-v010
Subject description: work in progress
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v010
lots of redesign issues
new colors added
event sequencer createt
nord filter advances
clock generator buttons and panel calculations fixed
namebar module created


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xav



Joined: Mar 21, 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quite interesting! I'd like to try, and to hear... sure that depends on everyone computer and soundcard. Do you think it would also be possible with Pure Data?
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dorremifasol



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Amazing Shocked
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Albert
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gomidas



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dorremifasol wrote:
Amazing Shocked


I agree.
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peterkadar



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow, that's looking really good. I just put a payment down on Komplete 5, so soon I'll be in Reaktor land as well. Now I just need a new computer to run the whole thing, lol.
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bantri



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

xav wrote:
I'd like to try, and to hear...

Too soon for that...

Still in early stages of development and rigorous standardization.

A huge effort is necessary in this part, because a wrong decision at the atomic level can cost a fortune later, re-working the interface, if some atomic change is needed, after dozens of modules and hundreds of buttons were already done.
(The infamous "butterfly effect")


xav wrote:
sure that depends on everyone computer and soundcard.

Chances are that...
In the next 2 years, it is going to depend on your *video* card also...
The recent nvidia CUDA library came to stay, and it allows +- 4000% floating point calculation performance increase for audio over a top quad core CPU, and i hope that NI product development manager don´t underestimate that fact.

xav wrote:
Do you think it would also be possible with Pure Data?

Good question...

Not in a million years.

They made fatal mistakes at the atomic level, and to make such a high level, top layer interface, like that of G2 (which i consider brilliant), would require rebuilding PD entirely again, from scratch, using a totally different set of paradigms.

It´s like trying to build a pyramid, using bottom base blocks made of styrofoam, and upper blocks of concrete, no matter how much effort you put in trying to build it... the final result is catastrophic.

PD was built in such base.

Reaktor has some serious mistakes too, but far less fatal ones, if compared with that ugly, disorganized, confusing interface, with unexistent naming conventions, exposed math formulas at the top layer, absence of module conection labels and auto colored classification (logic, control, audio), mediocre black hairline patching wires, layer problems, etc...

Max/MSP is "cuter" but has the same fatal mistakes that PD has.

Both PD and Max/MSP need some serious reworking and a lot of research/development before i consider them viable products.
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bantri



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

peterkadar wrote:
Wow, that's looking really good.


Yep...

High quality is one of the objectives...

To give you an ideia of the scale size i´m working on, take a look on the the ClassIcon on 1:1 scale:


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bantri



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Bug tests...

Several unpleasant problems:
-The buttons are bugged. (see image)
-The grid snap is limited to 4x4 and doesn´t turn off
-Once the "No frame" macro attribute is activated, the macro cannot be dragged or selected anymore, neither it´s title can be changed or displayed.
-Clicking on the background of a macro doesn´t select all the objects in that macro
-Using macros with frames steal a lot of useful space
-Objects inside a macro cannot be grouped or locked
-Dragging an object outside the bounds of a macro destroys the macro size and changes layout
etc, etc etc...


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peterkadar



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That would drive me crazy!!

But maybe I need to get out a little more Wink

I need to listen to some good Reaktor demos and get hyped for when my copy of Komplete comes in!!
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bantri



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Complete layout remake in progress.
(Optimizing for 1280x1024 screen resolution.)

-plans for "half-module"

-reaktor crawls when using ARGB for module panels, underneath ARGB controls.
(bye bye for those nice rounded corners modules)

-Redimensioning the module aspect ratio

-Full migration from buttons to pictures. (zero frame width, zero bugs)
(it´s unbelievable how NI let that bug pass in such an often used control like button...[they forgot to add a frame attribute in the button])

-16 Grouped button array and 16 grouped led array in development for
the sequencer modules

-New, state-of-the-art apps used for rendering the buttons

-Rigorous grid standardization complete, number of pixels raised to 21 for the largest single grid element. (4 pixels reaktor grid limit x 5 +1)

-3d frame and line frame suck, bye bye for those long macro names

-Change from "even" pixel dimensioning for "odd" dimensioning to allow a single center pixel to be displayed

-Study for creating large truetype font text displays
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Chrono



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great concept! looking forward to try this out Smile
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bantri



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

-Major change in layout
-Rescaling ongoing
-Layout study for 2H modules
-Class Icon change
-Aspect ratio change (better proportions)


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bantri



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hmmm.... giving it a second look it seems too big
(3 columns fitting in a 1280x1024 screen doesn´t seem enough)

-studies for smaller atomic elements in progress
-plans for grid layout change
-techniques for overcoming the nasty reaktor 4x4 grid achieved
-techniques for discarding the nasty bugged reaktor buttons achieved
-sacrificing the 4 icon button model for first prototype
-studies for the 1 pixel alpha darkening border
-lots of prime number calculations
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buzzr



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Looking forward to your progress! Very Happy
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bantri



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Grid 4x4 Limit hacked by brute force.

It requires imense work in reaktor to overcome that annoying 4x4 limit.

To achieve precise single pixel design is "almost" impossible.

(I recomend very strong persuasion to the NI guys, so they can simplify precise single pixel design some other way than using this crappy 4x4 grid, in the next version, after all, users should spend more time making sound, than wasting days to make a decent graphical interface.)


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bantri



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The rigorous size fitting study is finally giving some interesting results...


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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

Looks interesting, how are you going to do the patch cables?

Cheers

Andy
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bantri



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Patch Cables in the front panel layer are a responsibility of NI.

I´m counting on everybody that is following this topic here, to send lots of mails here:

"GUI Patch Cables!"
https://www.nativeinstruments.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82058

I hope that, if everybody applies heavy pressure in this subject, sending hundreds of emails on that NI topic, maybe those lazy NI programmers finally include this feature in version 6.

I´m counting on you to do this also.

Front panel patch cables, is a feature that had to be added a long time ago... I don´t understand why they didn´t.

I consider this absence of patch cables in Reaktor, a fatal problem.
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bantri



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Current Status (v024)


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bantri



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Another important feature....

For example...
Today i have to do a revision on the big cyan OnOff button.

It has already propagated in several modules (seen above)

This means that when the new revision is done, i have to go back in every place that has this button and replace it for the new macro, and reposition the graphical object with the mouse again.

This implies that if you don´t make a rock solid development in the lowest level atomic elements, later, when some it´s used in hundreds of places, the re-working process multiplies enormously.

It shoudn´t be this way, a feature for having macro clones is needed, to allow the changes in those elements to be done a single time, the same way that is done in programming languages. (if you change a procedure, all the calls for it will reflect the changes)

This is not as serious as missing patch cables, because at least there is a solution, going inside every module and pasting/repositioning the revised macro.
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bantri



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Much to be done yet....


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