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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
tempo is unstable
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Akum420



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:34 pm    Post subject: tempo is unstable
Subject description: I have seen other topics about this issue. But I need more information.
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Hi !

The tempo from my G2X is unstable when the G2X is slave (+/- 2 bpm) and Cubase SX3 is master. I have seen other topics about this issue. A solution is to use the MIDI clock from the G2X as master (but the G2 have some limitations about the tempo and transport) or to use the MIDI clock from other hardware gear (i.e. ESX OR RS7000).

Another way is to dedicate a MIDI track on Cubase. Put a note each beat and sync the G2X on it. What about this trick. Is it working good ?


I'm doing a test : I started a MIDI loop with my G2X with the internal clock. After, I started recording MIDI from the G2X loop in Cubase. The result is disappointing (look in the picture below). I need to quantize everything. Sometime the recorded note is before and sometime after.

I think the G2X MIDI clock is not responsible for that. I think the problem is the Asio driver/buffer size. And the motherboard/cpu/RAM too. I run a Pentium 4, 2 Go RAM, XP Pro, dedicated to music. No anti-virus, no firewall, no internet conexion, game, etc... without vst/i and vst. My computer run good. The buffer size is set to 5ms without cliping. At 2ms, it's cliping.
Can I obtain a best result (to record MIDI in Cubase without quantize it) if Cubase is slave and a RS7000 is master (MIDI clock)?


EDIT : What's the best solution to record/play the MIDI from my G2X in a software sequencer without quantize everything? Because I hear that it's not synchronized before to quantize all MIDI notes and play it again from cubase.


MIDI from G2X internal clock.JPG
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MIDI from G2X internal clock.JPG



MIDI from G2X internal clock2.JPG
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iPassenger



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is a problem for all midi clock and midi note data when hardware is used with computers, there just not quick enough (well at least they don't priortize midi data). Different midi interfaces will give you better and worse results, as well as different sequence software. In my experience whilst the cubase midi clock is relatively stable I never found it to have the tightest of midi when it comes to sending/receiving note data.

I sync (midi-clock) all my gear to Ableton and whilst it isn't perfect it certainly gives me usable results. However i do find the recording of midi into the pc pretty hit and miss, it seems to handle midi out better IMO.

Although it shouldn't affect it may do, try lowering your audio buffer settings to as low as they can go without the audio breaking up.. bizarrely in Ableton this improves midi performance! It may work the same in Cubase.

The one thing that makes Cubase unusable for me is that there is no midi clock offset.. All my machines behave slightly differently to midi clock signals, to keep them all in time, you need to slightly offset there clock signal. E.g. Some machines start playing faster than others, so offsetting the clock puts them all back in line again.

In summary midi and computers bizarrely don't seem to mix that well! No matter what you do it will be work around or a best fit and probably a way off what you consider perfect.

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Akum420



Joined: Jul 22, 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
try lowering your audio buffer settings to as low as they can go without the audio breaking up.. bizarrely in Ableton this improves midi performance!


Quote:
The buffer size is set to 5ms without cliping. At 2ms, it's cliping.


yes same thing with cubase. But I don't think it's weird, I think it's logic, The buffer size reduce the MIDI latency too. And it's improved when I work in 96000 kHz instead of 44100 kHz.

MIDI interface : MTP 8x8 (connected to the printer port)
Audio card : E-MU 1820

I have 2 MIDI In/Out on my E-MU 1820, I will test it to check if the result will be different than my MTP.

The G2 editor run on a other computer. I don't use USB, CD/DVD/floppy drive, unused network card, etc... on the pc with Cubase on. Everything is deactived when I make sound.

The best solution is to buy a hardware sampler with MIDI, right ?! and use cubase to record audio....an old Akai ???
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iPassenger



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Serial midi interfaces are rumoured to be much better than usb/firewire devices...

Not sure there is a solution, Cubase would still trigger the midi samples from the sampler.

My music pc is also my general internet pc, so I have most of the stuff you mnetion running when i do music and still get results, i suspect that maybe the midi drivers for your audio card are not awsome the serial midi machine will hopefully be much better. I use Midex 3, I also have a MOTU fastlane 2x2 and Midiman 2x2. The fastlane is terrible at keeping good time on my pc, so I demoted it to patching duties for the Nord G1. The midex is pretty good and I haven't tested the midiman on this pc yet but it used to be pretty good.

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Antimon



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just curious - is recording MIDI data generated from the Nord into Cubase really what you're after? I've recorded audio from my NMG2 into Cubase and Live with the G2 as the clock master with not that much hassle - you get a consistent offset that you can adjust after you've made the recording. I'm not sure synching from a third device would solve this particular problem...

/Stefan

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Akum420



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Before, I used ERA, EST and Gat'r (Sonicbytes) to make my drum pattern and play with it live. I controlled it with a control surface. My sampler is Battery (NI).

Track MIDI1, In : my control surface, MIDI Out : ERA
Track MIDI2, In : ERA, Out : Battery

This solution worked well. After I worked with a ESX (Korg), the sound quality was not so bad but I did not like the MIDI part, very limited. But I was able to do all my drum pattern with the ESX. Just to send the audio at the end.


Now what I want to do to solve this puzzle is to send the MIDI from the G2X to a hardware sampler and to cubase simultaneously. During I play with pattern on the G2X, Am I suposed to obtain a sound without lagging ? Right ? Because the MIDI will be send from the G2X directly to the hardware sampler. No comunication between hardware and a computer on this way. I can quantize the MIDI on cubase after I finished the recording. Play the MIDI from Cubase after.

Last edited by Akum420 on Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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iPassenger



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:
...you get a consistent offset that you can adjust after you've made the recording. I'm not sure synching from a third device would solve this particular problem...

/Stefan


You also get timing jitter, caused by the inaccuracies of both the midi clock and the midi notes being sent by the software, if you compare this to the results generated by hardware seqs, midi and computers are not great. TBH though as long as your midi interface is pretty good you can get very workable results, its just not perfect, like say soft synths which are sample accurate.

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iPassenger



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Akum420 wrote:

Now what I want to do to solve this puzzle is to send the MIDI from the G2X to a hardware sampler and to cubase simultaneously. During I play with pattern on the G2X, Am I suposed to obtain a sound without lagging ? Right ? Because the MIDI will be send from the G2X directly to the hardware sampler. No comunication between hardware and a computer on this way. I can quantize the MIDI on cubase after I finished the recording. Play the MIDI from Cubase after.


Yeah this should work. I haven't done much external sequencing with the G2 though and when i have I have bypassed the pc altogether. If the midi signal your recording in the pc, is going through the pc before it reaches your sampler, any timing inaccuracies may well get passed on to the sampler, as the midi gets slopped about inside the pc. For example i have used my MD to trigger my waldorf pulse, if the signal goes to the pulse via ableton (ableton in record ready mode but not actually recording the midi), the resulting midi stream is no where near as tight as it was when it left the MD.

It surprises me that in this day and age with all the cpu horsepower available they can't sort this one out but apparently it has as much to do with the OS, (XP, Visat etc) as it does with the hardware configuration.

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Jason



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have been also using sync in a similar fashion for some time with good results, though yes it can be unstable. However I want to reiterate a needed adjustment in some if not most Steinberg/Cubase apps:

In the Device Setup menu under Device:
under MIDI> Direct Music> select use time stamp for given device etc.
This can remedy odd timing delays for some.

I am upgrading to Cubase 5 and am looking forward to see how well or not this works..
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3phase



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

you can sync the g2 prett well with audio pulses.. but you will loose 2 outputs on your soundcard and 2 inputs on the G2 for this..

i actually started to do a patch that is doing this with only one I/O..but this costs more dsp in the G2 than ...

basically you have pulses for the 16th notes and a pulse for the sync command... with the pulses on a lower level than the sync pulse it should be possible to do it with just one track...
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fac



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

iPassenger wrote:
Serial midi interfaces are rumoured to be much better than usb/firewire devices...


I might have a word on that. For some reason, the USB driver for my Midisport 8x8 won't install properly on my PC (WinXP), so I have to use it in serial mode. Except for the fact that I have to turn on first the Midisport and then the PC (otherwise Windows will crash), the interface works pretty well, and the latency and jitter are equal or better than in USB mode. Not negligible, though. Sometimes I have to quantize stuff when recording the MIDI output of drum machines sync'ed to my DAW.

On the other hand, I usually drive my G2's clock with a drum machine (a Machinedrum these days), and I plug a short (3 feet) MIDI cable directly from the MD to the G2, so no interfaces are involved, and still there is some jitter. This is not the G2 fault, though... it's perfectly normal for a MIDI connection because the clock messages are being sent along with other MIDI messages, which may sometimes delay the clock ticks for a few ms.

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Akum420



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ipassenger wrote:
...with all the cpu horsepower available they can't sort this one out but apparently it has as much to do with the OS, (XP, Visat etc)...

yes !! someone tried with a Mac? same result ?


Jason wrote:
In the Device Setup menu under Device:
under MIDI> Direct Music> select use time stamp for given device etc.
This can remedy odd timing delays for some.

Nothing change but it's good to know


Jason wrote:
I am upgrading to Cubase 5 and am looking forward to see how well or not this works..

Let me know if the result is different please.


3phase wrote:
you can sync the g2 prett well with audio pulses..

the result is better than a MIDI track with a 16th notes ?

3phase wrote:
i actually started to do a patch that is doing this with only one I/O..but this costs more dsp in the G2 than ...

Do you have a exemple or with 2 I/O ? I'm interested to test it.


fac wrote:
Except for the fact that I have to turn on first the Midisport and then the PC (otherwise Windows will crash)

same to everyone connected with the parallel port. But my windows never crash !! Now, my MTP (MOTU) is everytime turned "ON".


fac wrote:

I plug a short (3 feet) MIDI cable directly from the MD to the G2...

yeah! another good point, the length of MIDI cable.
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The impedance of the MIDI cable is almost of no consequence, and so the delay is also of little value (<100ns over 100 meters I would expect to be typical). Since MIDI is limited to 50 ft, I wouldn't say it's a problem.

As from what I've seen, XP has a better latency than OSX. However, in Linux, one can turn up the value of certain timers, and improve the MIDI response time greatly. Since your interface uses interrupts to tell the CPU there's data, you should focus there: is there any IRQ sharing happening with your MIDI interface (serial, usb, etc)? If so, try to get the interface it's own dedicated IRQ. Also, disable things in your BIOS that aren't used: Just because they aren't used, doesn't mean the OS won't keep checking, just in case you do want to use it. Disabling APIC can have mixed results- it may help, or it may hurt, but it should be worth trying. That's a method of nesting interrupt controllers so you can hang more hardware on your computer.

Last, if your running XP, try a program called "FSAutostart". Using it, you can shut down services and programs not needed. It works wonders. Last, you can kill "explorer", which might not improve latency, but will improve the repeatability of your latency (ie - clock jitter).
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abstraktor



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have run an emagic unitor8 both as a serial device and as a USB one under XP, and the performance is slightly better as a serial, however that might be because the sytem assigned a higher IRQ number to it. And yes, the power on order was important (unitor then PC).
MIDI timing has always been a real headache with PC's (which is why I've been looking into gate/CV sequencing).
What about using an old Atari ST as a master? Laughing
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Akum420



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

do you think it's the same thing with ProTools TDM ? I don't want to use it. The MIDI in ProTools TDM was basic but I'm curious. I will test it soon.
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abstraktor



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i'm guessing you mean pro tools HD systems (?) - HD uses the custom digi pci cards to connect via "toslink" to the interfaces -I'm not sure if the digidesign MIDI i/face connects in the same way, but if it is USB then it will be less efficient than a pci link. The way that USB buses are designed in computers mean that there will be more chance of data bottlenecks if multiple usb devices are connected...whereas a pci card will access the main bus more readily...or so the theory goes!
A couple of years ago I had to load up an Atari ST song and hook it up to a K2000 and some other Emu modules (this is after 8 years of using a PC to control MIDI). There was no doubt in my mind (or ears) that the timing was much more accurate than the PC (I often edited in 64ths).
I wonder if Linux is any better than Windows with MTC accuracy.
Anyone know?
-abstraktor
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