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Inventor
Stream Operator
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 9:12 pm Post subject:
EM10 Lunetta Workshop Subject description: Call for advice/opinions - use your noodle to help us out! |
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Hey folks, I thought it might be a good idea to do a Lunetta breadboarding workshop and the electro-music 2010 festival. Then electri-fire (Mathe) jumped on the idea and we've been making plans to bring the workshop to reality.
The fee is planned to be $48 and will include a breadboard, some 22 ga wire, chips, discretes, battery holder, output jack, and maybe a speaker as well.
I'm posting to get your opinion of what circuits should be included in this workshop and also for any other comments you might have. Of course, if you know me you know I want to do a Boolean Sequencer so that will be one of the schematics, and I'd also like to offer some alternative designs for participants to choose from. I'll put together a zip file of pdf docs for datasheets, schematics, and instructions.
Also I have been told that using 555s and VCOs is a real no-no from a Lunetta purist standpoint, so tell me if you agree with that perspective (I <3 little Lunetta VCOs, but nobody else seems to!). Any other thoughts or suggestions are welcome, thanks.
Les _________________ "Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz |
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Rykhaard
Joined: Sep 02, 2007 Posts: 1290 Location: Canada
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 2:58 am Post subject:
Re: EM10 Lunetta Workshop Subject description: Call for advice/opinions - use your noodle to help us out! |
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Inventor wrote: |
I'm posting to get your opinion of what circuits should be included in this workshop and also for any other comments you might have. Of course, if you know me you know I want to do a Boolean Sequencer so that will be one of the schematics, and I'd also like to offer some alternative designs for participants to choose from. I'll put together a zip file of pdf docs for datasheets, schematics, and instructions.
Also I have been told that using 555s and VCOs is a real no-no from a Lunetta purist standpoint, so tell me if you agree with that perspective (I <3 little Lunetta VCOs, but nobody else seems to!). Any other thoughts or suggestions are welcome, thanks.
Les |
Great idea, both of you! I wish I could attend this, majorly!
I offer my Pulse Width Oscillator. That's the CD4023 (triple 3 input NAND Gate) oscillator that has the option of being modulated 1 or 2 external sources, for turning it on or off.
(I had posted audio and I believe a circuit with it, last year.)
Just let me know if interested and I could post you a schematic specifically for it.
(3 of the P.W.O. are also currently the main 'engines' within my Atari Jazz Console / Deathlehem Droning Dimentia V2.00 (2 videos of it are up at my youtube site.), that I've almost finished developing.) |
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droffset
Joined: Feb 02, 2009 Posts: 515 Location: London area
Audio files: 2
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 4:21 am Post subject:
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Cool idea, sorry I'll miss it!
It sort of depends on your audience and how much time you have. Are they experienced DIYers looking for something different? Have they ever breadboarded stuff?
I'd probably get all purist for a classroom situation and start with the basics instead of slogging through a big circuit build before hearing anything working. There's a lot of fun in the discovery process. My usual beginning flow is:
oscillator to a 4040,
slow clocks into logic gates to get intermittent on/off streams,
then send that into a shift register data input and clock it with something a bit quicker. Use the outputs for lots of stuff.
40106
4040
4011
4094 0r 4015
Show them how to work CMOS and just connect pins together. That'll cover lots of time.
Maybe put LEDs on your supply list too, it's much easier to visualize what's happening with blinkies.
Maybe have a mixer/amp setup already for them to tap into so you do'nt have to spend time learning how to make a little amp. _________________ ==================
Check out the FREE Intro to Lunettas Document
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1V9qerry_PsXTZqt_UDx7C-wcuMe_6_gyy6M_MyAgQoA/edit?usp=sharing
Edit: Spelling mistakes. |
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kkissinger
Joined: Mar 28, 2006 Posts: 1354 Location: Kansas City, Mo USA
Audio files: 42
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 4:56 am Post subject:
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Great idea! I would like to attend such a seminar as I would like to build a Lunetta in the future -- perhaps in 2011.
Currently, I'm adding modules to my synthesizer and I've purposely ordered chips and other parts in quantity -- and I'm accumulating a good collection of clocks, counters, logic chips, and transistors.
Thus, a seminar would be very useful to me at this point in my electronic music life. _________________ -- Kevin
http://kevinkissinger.com |
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RF
Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 1502 Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
Audio files: 28
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:30 am Post subject:
Re: EM10 Lunetta Workshop Subject description: Call for advice/opinions - use your noodle to help us out! |
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Good idea Les - I'm sure it'll be a great success. I always get a lot of interest in building Lunetta devices when i show people my stuff.
Inventor wrote: |
Also I have been told that using 555s and VCOs is a real no-no from a Lunetta purist standpoint,
Les |
I dunno... I think you can use what you want with what you've got or can get. I've used 555's and 40106 VFO's - and not. I think it's all good.
The right honerable Mr. Lunetta told me in an e-mail some time back that he was building these 'cause he couldn't afford to buy a production synth at the time... I think you use whatever you got/want.
bruce _________________ www.sdiy.org/rfeng
"I want to make these sounds that go wooo-wooo-ah-woo-woo.”
(Herb Deutsch to Bob Moog ~1963) |
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electri-fire
Joined: Jul 26, 2006 Posts: 536 Location: Dordrecht NL
Audio files: 4
G2 patch files: 4
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 6:33 am Post subject:
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Sure 555's can be used.
The reason I sugested 40106 oscillators is not only for them being "purist"CMOS, but also for their ease of use and them having up to six oscillators.
Kevin: Having seen your modular at EM09 I don't think we could teach you a lot technically. But that is not entirely the point I think.
This workshop will be as well about breadboarding (have you seen Inventer's breadboard pics?) as it is about Lunetta building.
I think this workshop should be of interest to both beginners and proficient builders. As an introduction into breadboarding, the Lunetta fun, esthetics and concept, and to provide means to pursue further expansion of your circuits after the workshop.
I think Les was a little fast to announce the workshop at this stage, I reminded Les of his plan less than a week ago, and the workshop setup plan still needs some adjusting. But we're working on it, and it's good to have you all think with us. |
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electri-fire
Joined: Jul 26, 2006 Posts: 536 Location: Dordrecht NL
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 7:04 am Post subject:
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droffset wrote: | I'd probably get all purist for a classroom situation and start with the basics instead of slogging through a big circuit build before hearing anything working. There's a lot of fun in the discovery process. |
Exactly. Best way is first build one oscillator and an output, and have that working first. Then add a 4040 and R/2R DAC, and let people play with that for a while. Next add a gate, try that, maybe try some other gates, add some more stuff, maybe a 4021 and/or 4051.
droffset wrote: | Show them how to work CMOS and just connect pins together. That'll cover lots of time. |
I think it would be better to have two half day sessions rather than a whole day to give participants some time to experiment on their own in between. Unless some participants will be there for just one day of cause. We'll see.
droffset wrote: | Maybe put LEDs on your supply list too, it's much easier to visualize what's happening with blinkies. |
Right. I have enough LEDs in my parts collection to donate some to the part sets.
droffset wrote: | Maybe have a mixer/amp setup already for them to tap into so you don't have to spend time learning how to make a little amp. |
Nice, I had been contemplating that. The opamp Les envisioned as an output would be able to drive a headphone, so is it ok to ask participants to bring their own? Would at least prevent me from turning raving mad during the workshop. We could plug into the mixer thingy to demo stuff, have people show cool patterns they come up with, and "rehearse" for the joint public Jam/Performance, as Les has applied for stage time.
(Les, we'd need 1/8inch cables then, in stead of speakers) |
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Inventor
Stream Operator
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 8:58 am Post subject:
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Rich: Please post your schematic(s) and I'll base a second design on them.
droffset: Yes, we will build in stages. Thanks for the LED idea. We're planning to include a flat piezo speaker so they can hear any node they want.
Kevin: Great, I'm glad you can attend! If you bring some chips and their datasheets, maybe we can cook up something fun just for you!
bruce: I didn't think of that, good perspective. I'll include the 555 VCO's
Mathe: I can bring some headphones and include 1/8" jacks in the kit.
Thanks everyone for your input. I'll post some technical data as I put it together.
Les _________________ "Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz |
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droffset
Joined: Feb 02, 2009 Posts: 515 Location: London area
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 12:46 pm Post subject:
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I think you guys are going to have a great class, sounds like fun.
As RF points out, this Lunetta stuff seems more like a way of going about something rather than a strict dedication to a family of chips. In my humble opinion the experimentation and simplicity of the approach is the important part. Starting with CMOS gives us a common language to start with.
Another very useful combo is the 4017/4051 Melody generator.
Kevin considering what you can do with your modular I'd be very interested to hear what your Lunetta would sound like. I'm dreaming of Theremin integration, just a suggestion. _________________ ==================
Check out the FREE Intro to Lunettas Document
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1V9qerry_PsXTZqt_UDx7C-wcuMe_6_gyy6M_MyAgQoA/edit?usp=sharing
Edit: Spelling mistakes. |
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Rykhaard
Joined: Sep 02, 2007 Posts: 1290 Location: Canada
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 4:34 pm Post subject:
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Inventor wrote: | Rich: Please post your schematic(s) and I'll base a second design on them.
Les |
I just tossed one together quickly, taking a break from completing the PCB layout for my Atari Jazz Console V2.00.
Use it / modify it, as you please and show me what you come up with. (The latest version in the AJC 2 is a little different, from this one.) |
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Inventor
Stream Operator
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 4:39 pm Post subject:
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Rich, I see how your circuit works and I like it! I'll include it in the workshop, thanks.
Les _________________ "Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz |
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Inventor
Stream Operator
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:00 pm Post subject:
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Here is the parts list that I conjured up for the workshop. Please let me know of any changes you have. We still need to shave about $5 off of the budget, but I think I can do that. p.s. sorry it's hard to read, it's tab delimited.
Les
Code: | Parts List for Lunetta Breadboard Workshop
Q Description Supplier Part # $ea subtotal
1 headphones AllElectronics HP-100 $2.35 $2.35
1 1/8" stereo cable AllElectronics CB-461 $1.25 $1.25
1 1/8" stereo jack AllElectronics SMJ-2 $0.45 $0.45
10 0.1u AllElectronics RM-104s $1.00 / 20 $0.50
3 1MEG pot DigiKey 3352H-105LF $1.24 $3.72
1 1n4148 diode AllElectronics 1N4148 $1.01 / 15 $0.07
3 4.7n AllElectronics CM-472 $0.90 / 10 $0.27
30 100k DigiKey 100KXBK $0.098 $2.94
2 4030 XOR DigiKey 296-2047-5 $0.48 $0.96
1 4040 12 bit counter DigiKey 296-2048-5 $0.50 $0.50
1 LMC555 DigiKey LMC555CN $1.54 $1.54
8 LED AllElectronics LED-1 $1.00 / 10 $0.80
10 1k DigiKey 1.00KXBK $0.106 $1.06
1 battery AllElectronics HD-9V $0.85 $0.85
1 battery snap AllElectronics BST-3 $1.00 / 4 $0.25
1 breadboard AllElectronics PB-1680 $15.95 $15.95
1 10u AllElectronics $0.10 $0.10
2 4093 NAND DigiKey 296-2068-5 $0.48 $0.96
2 4001 NOR DigiKey 296-2028-5 $0.48 $0.96
2 4081 AND DigiKey 296-2066-5 $0.48 $0.96
2 4023 3 input NAND DigiKey 296-2041-5 $0.48 $0.96
1 4051 mux DigiKey 296-2057-5 $0.50 $0.50
1 4021 shift register DigiKey 296-2040=5 $0.50 $0.50
1 4017 decade counter DigiKey 296-2037-5 $0.50 $0.50
1 TL074 DigiKey 296-1777-5 $0.68 $0.68
1 Needlenose Pliers TheRingLord $5.00 $5.00
1 Wire Strippers AllElectronics WS-150 $4.00 $4.00
1 5" Flush Cutter AllElectronics FC-14 $4.50 $4.50
Total $53.08 |
_________________ "Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24079 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:23 pm Post subject:
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Inventor wrote: | p.s. sorry it's hard to read |
You lazy SOB _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Inventor
Stream Operator
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:28 pm Post subject:
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Blue Hell wrote: | Inventor wrote: | p.s. sorry it's hard to read |
You lazy SOB |
Haha, yep that's me! _________________ "Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz |
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droffset
Joined: Feb 02, 2009 Posts: 515 Location: London area
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fluxmonkey
Joined: Jun 24, 2005 Posts: 708 Location: cleve
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Inventor
Stream Operator
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 7:33 pm Post subject:
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Droffset, the wire cutters are necessary because of the neat-freak technique that I use to make super-nice breadboard circuits. I plan to teach that technique in the workshop. So are the pliers. But I think the diagonal cutters can go.
Bbob, thanks for the link, that's a really nice web page you've created!
I asked Stan if he had any circuits for us to consider and he gave me this link:
http://moosack.net/lunettacircuits/
I can't read them all clearly, but we can at least get some ideas. And btw, I saw some 555 chips used on one of the schematics (the super sequencer) so I guess if Stan uses 555's then we can too! So much for CMOS-only, eh?
Les _________________ "Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz |
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electri-fire
Joined: Jul 26, 2006 Posts: 536 Location: Dordrecht NL
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Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 4:00 am Post subject:
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Inventor wrote: | I guess if Stan uses 555's then we can too! So much for CMOS-only, eh? |
We can use and supply 555's , but still I think attendants need to use 40106 for educational purpose and it's ease of use.
Inventor wrote: |
1 LMC555 $1.54
8 LED $0.80
1 TL074 $0.68
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I checked some of my parts, I can supply at least two 555's and 8 or more LEDs for free.
I'm sure to have loads of quad opamps, may not be TL074, but at least compatible, and can bring in two at least for the parts kits.
That's $3.22 less costs. |
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State Machine
Janitor
Joined: Apr 17, 2006 Posts: 2809 Location: New York
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Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 4:07 am Post subject:
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Ahh, Les, it still would be all CMOS since you are using the part below.
Wink wink ...
LMC555CN/NOPB
Description IC TIMER CMOS 8-DIP
This all sounds cool
Bill |
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droffset
Joined: Feb 02, 2009 Posts: 515 Location: London area
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RF
Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 1502 Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
Audio files: 28
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Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 4:45 am Post subject:
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Wow-
I hadn't seen those circuit drawings from Stan!
Thanks for finding and posting those...
bruce _________________ www.sdiy.org/rfeng
"I want to make these sounds that go wooo-wooo-ah-woo-woo.”
(Herb Deutsch to Bob Moog ~1963) |
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kkissinger
Joined: Mar 28, 2006 Posts: 1354 Location: Kansas City, Mo USA
Audio files: 42
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Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 6:14 am Post subject:
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droffset wrote: | Kevin considering what you can do with your modular I'd be very interested to hear what your Lunetta would sound like. I'm dreaming of Theremin integration, just a suggestion. |
Well, I will have theremins with me and they have CV outputs. I will plan to bring my Theremax -- in keeping with the DIY concept.
My breadboard work tends to be really messy -- so I look forward to learning techniques that will allow me to do nice beadboards. _________________ -- Kevin
http://kevinkissinger.com |
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Inventor
Stream Operator
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
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Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 6:48 am Post subject:
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Mathe: There will definitely be CD40106 oscillators in the projects. Bring any spare parts you like!
Kevin: I use the "neat-freak technique", also called the "staple method", my nicknames for it. By carefully trimming and shaping the wires, you make them into shapes like a staple gun's staples. This causes them to lay flat on the breadboard so you can see all the interconnect and won't dislodge the wires. Some U-shaped long jumper wires are used for reconfigurable interconnect situations as well.
Les _________________ "Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz |
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