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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
frequency shifter
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Funky40 wrote:
I went thru calibration inclouding step 5
At step 5 i got 3V out for the comp output. Trimmer is in endposition.


Not measured any Frequenzys, so i could have been aside.
( The calibratioon was also more meant to to be able to see if the module works. )

so far the 3V cmp-out seem to be the only Problem.


If everything else works, I wouldn't think much about the levels being a few dBs off. - If you want to, you can change the resistor value that is connected in series with the trimpot. (These OTAs may have higher gain tolerances than I had expected.) - But really, if it sounds ok, I wouldn't spend much thought about the level.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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Funky40



Joined: Sep 24, 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I could patch the FS-1A today for around 40 minutes.
Just tried with a Drumpatch, 808 BD. ---> Frequency shifters are bad things hehe.
The Module is not finished, also have to change some things, but electronics work as it seems to me. Must test with some speaking thru it.
I'll report back.
#2 is nearly ready for final wiring too


ahhh, if changing the Resistor for comp out gain : higher or lower ?
what i can say is: it looks as i also have to add a 50K Resistor into the Feedback path.
thanks so far Jürgen !
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Funky40



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you very much for this wonderful Module Jürgen !
I patched a little bit, mostly noises, and tested my FS-1A on a Recoring with some voice. Seem to work fine.
I'm very proud that i have built successfully the FS-1A i must say .
...and it's a Noise montser Shocked Laughing I mean when patching nonsense/Noise and adding Feedback. Results can be astonishing pleasing.
( sorry, no possibility to record anything )


In the meantime i built a second one.
That one has a oscillation somewhere, and calibrationstep 1 is not working.
I thought it must be the wiring, but after a first checking this looks good to me.
Must check again and post my questions directly when looking.
Need some measurmentpoints to compare my two Modules
Jürgen if you have some hints by now, i'm glad to hear them
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Funky40 wrote:
Thank you very much for this wonderful Module Jürgen !
I patched a little bit, mostly noises, and tested my FS-1A on a Recoring with some voice. Seem to work fine.
I'm very proud that i have built successfully the FS-1A i must say .
...and it's a Noise montser Shocked Laughing I mean when patching nonsense/Noise and adding Feedback. Results can be astonishing pleasing.
( sorry, no possibility to record anything )


In the meantime i built a second one.
That one has a oscillation somewhere, and calibrationstep 1 is not working.
I thought it must be the wiring, but after a first checking this looks good to me.
Must check again and post my questions directly when looking.
Need some measurmentpoints to compare my two Modules
Jürgen if you have some hints by now, i'm glad to hear them


With one already running, and the two side by side, you have the best reference object for comparison!

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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Funky40



Joined: Sep 24, 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

a crappy Picture from my FS-1A




what i can say so far:
the FS-1A is a amazing Noisemaker Shocked Laughing
------> make a Feedbackoutjack, or SUM/Diff outputs. It's a must ! ( for patching nosie )
I have all three but SUM/Diff not wired for now


If you are into patching noise:
i suggest to make two CV inputs WITH Attenuators and Inverters and muteswitches for both, lin FM and exp FM.
Or put two mixers beside the FS-1A . But i say: this is not the same with mixers Wink


Thanks again to Jürgen for the help and the whole Project, to Tobias for the Partkits , and the help from you DIY geeks ! VERY Appreciated !!
I'm very happy and also very proud.
( belive it or not, even with that module that is like a cockpit of a Airplane, my modularsynth can not fly Laughing )


IMG_0108.JPG
 Description:
my FS-1A #1 in Eurorack format. The XLR/Jack and mic Gainstage is not wired till now. The LEDs are
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vtl5c3



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow. That's a nice looking panel (for an awesome circuit)!
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Funky40



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks VTL.


just patched 6 Hours nonstop with the FS-1A, not counting the hours the day.....
---------> build that FS-1A with a Feedback output i say ( or SUM and DIFF outputs ), or both.
I'm VERY impressed with the results from first patchings within the feedbackloop. IMO the FB insert is a must have ( go for a addon module if your FS-1A is allready built )
tested so far: LPG, CGS Grinder, 512stage BBD ( Doepfer) and all together.Grinder and BBD have muteswitch.
it's just WOW, and it "can" be VEEEERY musical. Easyer and better than FB without additional patchings.
..........speaking from patching crap/nonsense/Noise..............but the groovy one that sounds........ Wink never heard more pleasing noises.
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Funky40



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow, debugged my JH FS-1A #2.

I thought it must be the wiring, and i double checked all the connections going to the Board,
but guess not checked the connections between the Boards.
the interconnections of SigCos and Input where exchanged Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed ,
don't know, my Eyes could not see it........it was now a coinsidence while surching for the fault. Debugging was then very easy Laughing
Just finished calibration. gonna recalibrate both units later again.
now, what to take out to get space ?
wow, i'm happy. Very Happy Very Happy Each JH FS-1A was near to 400.-CHF / 350.-$
( with B-Funk partkits and supercheapo faceplate, but good apem switches and good jacks )
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zthee



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just thought I'd share another clip of my FS1A.

http://www.thehumancomparator.net/tmp/fs1a.mov

I've got some carrier bleedthru - as heard when the frequency is at the top. Don't know why though...

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sduck



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's great! I loved the grinning zthee at the end.

That carrier bleed is pretty extreme - maybe just some recalibration will cure that? Probably Jurgen will know...
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zthee



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks! It not me grinning though, but my friend who just helped me calibrate it Very Happy

I always mix up carrier and signal.. The internal VCO is not hear, but it seems like the signal coming into the FS1A is not entirely processed. There seems to be no way to trim it away?

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/mr



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Happy to see that you have a good time... Laughing
zthee wrote:
I always mix up carrier and signal.. The internal VCO is not hear, but it seems like the signal coming into the FS1A is not entirely processed. There seems to be no way to trim it away?

This is definitely not what it should sound like, that whistle shouldn't be there. I'm not sure exactly what all the trimpots do, though...

One thing that just struck me - if you'd have a DC component in your input signal by accident, wouldn't it end up this way? Shifted up to a whistling sinewave? Just a thought in the night. Rolling Eyes
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Funky40



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

How to patch the FS-1A that it tracks 1V/oct ?
I mean, whats the basic setting ?
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vtl5c3



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:21 pm    Post subject: Mic Input Wiring Q Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm finally getting around to wiring up my first FS. I'm a little confused by the diagram for the Mic Input. Is the shield connected to ground on the TRS Jack and the GND pad on the Mic input? Is this a case where you want the coax shield connected on both ends?

R.

[/i]
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:18 am    Post subject: Re: Mic Input Wiring Q Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

vtl5c3 wrote:
I'm finally getting around to wiring up my first FS. I'm a little confused by the diagram for the Mic Input. Is the shield connected to ground on the TRS Jack and the GND pad on the Mic input? Is this a case where you want the coax shield connected on both ends?

R.

[/i]


Grounding is a difficult thing, and depends on many parameters of your whole system. And there's different philosophies about right grounding, also. Smile

My drawing just gives you a hint how things would be connected with insulated jacks, so that shield would be the only GND connection. For other conditions, other grounding concepts apply. So, take my drawings just as a hint, and adapt it to your system and its grounding scheme.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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paulshillito



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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 7:24 am    Post subject:
Subject description: distorted sumout in FS1a
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I have recently built an FS1a but it rapidly developed a strange fault that I cant seem to get to the bottom of.

After the build and setup i noticed that the UP output out was very loud and distorted. I used a sine as an input and on investigation I found the SumOut was just a squarewave output switching from +/- 13.5V all the time instead following the diffOut which goes from a few hundred Mv up +/-12V when it starts to clip depending upon the input. I traced it back to the pin 12 output of U17B LM13600. Only when the input is at a very low level a few hundred mV does the SumOut have a positive sine top and a flat -2V bottom as is was almost half wave rectified, any more and snaps back to a full output squarewave.


I checked the inputs on pin 14 and 15 and these are about +15mV to -20mV (there a little bit of negative DC offset) and clearly shows the two outputs from the 1496's fine and out of phase. There is -12V in to pin 16 and 1 from the compander section and that is working all OK. If someone put a 5V 1KHz sine wave into the input of the FS1a, what would you expect to see on pins 14 and 15 of the U17B LM13600?, that should go a long way to seeing if the problem is with 13600 or before then in the 1496's.

The other half of the LM13600 for DiffOut is working fine, so I have no problems with the DOWN output. The whole thing had been working OK for about 30 minutes or more after which the problem occured, which pretty much rules out and wrong value resistors as it would not have worked at all with that issue.

To see if was the output of the LM13600 or the op-amp that was causing the problem I cut the track that joins them and still had +/-13.5V on the output of the LM13600. So I replaced the LM13600, everything worked OK and the output was normal level again. I ran thru the calibration again then the problem reoccured after about 30 minutes, exactly the same problem of the LM13600 acting like a switching comparitor rather than an amplifier. I have checked all the components, joints and signals in and out, I even replaced the LM13600 with a third one but this time it did not fix the problem. I have adjusted R127 and R133 but to no avail. The oscillator output is balanced and all the other calibrations are as they should be.

I have come to a dead end as to why this half LM13600 would be do this hard switching instead of amplifying. THe only thing I can think of is the phase of the inputs but that would be determined by the design which obviously works. Do you have any idea as to why this maybe occuring??

Regards

Paul

Last edited by paulshillito on Mon May 10, 2010 7:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Paul,

that's strange indeed, and I wouldn't expect the 13600 to be the culprit.

Maybe there is a bad solder joint that goes from connected to unconnected after some time. As you level dramatically increases, I suspect the bad solder joint is on a shunt resistor (OTA input divider maybe), or on a feedback resistor of an opamp. Just a guess, of course.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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paulshillito



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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Jurgen,

If there was a faulty joint on one of the 470R shunts then i should be getting a much larger input on either of the 13600 inputs that was affected but they are within a mV of each other whilst the output of the 13600 is clamping hard on before it gets to the opamp, this is most strange.

Is there anything in the phase difference to the inputs that would make the OTA work like a comparitor?, I cant see it but...

Paul
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paulshillito



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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Problem Found !!! at last and with the aid of some freezer spray and a hair dryer it turned out to be a dry joint on a shunt resistor, just as you suggested, you D'man Very Happy
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

paulshillito wrote:
Problem Found !!! at last and with the aid of some freezer spray and a hair dryer it turned out to be a dry joint on a shunt resistor, just as you suggested, you D'man Very Happy


Glad it worked!

I just hope they find the reason for a very *similar* intermittent problem on the electronics of my Citroen C4, which is at the repair shop right now ...

JH. (Seen a lot on bicyle lately)

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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vtl5c3



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:33 am    Post subject:  Finally completed! Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've pretty much completed my first JH FS. Today I did a simple test run to see what it could do to a drum machine. Here's the (raw and unedited) result:

http://soundcloud.com/jetfinger/haible-fs-and-ry30

I had no idea that a frequency shifter could provide so much tonal variety!!! Thank you Juergen, for making such a rare module available to us!
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Serenadi



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:11 am    Post subject: Lights ! - Lights ? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just made a mystic experience.

Last days, I built my two sets of pcbs of the fs1a.
I always test pcbs on my workbench before making any wiring or housing. So I did with these four fs1a pcbs. I only wired the "range" pot of the mainboard (exponential control) to make the first adjustments. Everythings works fine with the first one (adjustment steps 1-4).
Then i came to the second one. I discerned a strange behavior of the range pot. It worked like an acceleration pot of the frequency of the QVCO. Turned to the right a bit, the frequency started to increase, even when I stopped the pot movement. The frequency increased until its highest value (ca 25kHz). The same when I turned the pot to the left (only a bit), the frequency decreased to zero. So, adjusting a certain frequency was like turning in the direction of the wanted value a little bit, then stopping the increasing by turning the pot to the opposite direction a bit. It feels like a rubber band.
After a while running, the frequency decreased to zero without any action from me.
Also connecting the "direction" led, the frequency decreased to zero immediately.

Having two identical pcbs, one running perfectly, I thought it would be easy to compare and to find the error.

Wrong thoughts!
I spent several hours searching for this fault, replacing several components, couldn't find anything.

I have to say, I worked mostly at night, with two lights (normal 60W bulbs) over my workbench.
The third evening it wasn't that late, it is summer, I worked without the lights. While experimenting and searching for the fault, it got darker outside, so I switched on the lights.
The frequency of the VCO decreased to zero immediately !!!

I couldn't believe my eyes.
You know, there isn't any opto-electronic component on that board.
I tested again and again - switching on the lights, the VCO stopped working, switching of the lights, the VCO starts running. The rubber - behavior of the range pot was still there, of course. I moved a little black piece of foam over the pcb to find the place, it was light dependent.

To make it not that long:
The diodes D1 and D2 (after U3) were those two behaving improperly.
They are housed in glass, but I never heard of light dependance of 1N4148, but you can notice it also when measuring the forward voltage of a glassy diode.
I replaced them with other 1N4148, even with 1N914 (also glass housing), but no improvement. By the way, I noticed the same light dependance behavior at the first pcb also, but not so dramatically. It changes the frequency just 20% when switching on the lights.

I finally replaced the two diodes with 1N4001, the only ones I had with black plastic housing.
And voila: Everything works fine now, even the rubber band behavior of the range pot has nearly disappeared.
But not completely, in the upper range (ca. 5 kHz), the frequency still tends to rise - and this is on both pcbs.

So, the circuit seems to be very sensitive to very little changes in voltage at this point (U3). I really would like to read about your experiences, or a little comment of Jürgen. Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernd
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Interesting.
So, is an ordinary enclosure (for the whole Device) good enough to prevent this effect?
Otherwise, switching to diodes in plastic package, should be an easy, and unexpected improovement.
Did anybody else notice something like that?

JH.

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Serenadi



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
So, is an ordinary enclosure (for the whole Device) good enough to prevent this effect?


Maybe. If you close the shutters it will be better for sure. Wink

No one to confirm? Or even confirm the opposite?
Ok, you folks think, this guy from Germany is completely stupid.

I further played around with my two mainboards, one stuffed with 1N4148, the other with 1N4001. Nice to compare.
All I told above occurs when linear control is set to zero. I wrote, I had only the range pot connected. This means, linear control is nearly zero. Even better to retrace when setting the middle pin of the pots "manual" and "fine" to ground (with both pots left in the middle position of course).

In this case, and with the range pot set to a very low value, the QVCO frequency is nearly zero too, but it doesn't stop completely. I think this is because of slightly tolerances in the circuit.

If you now increase the range pot to get higher frequencies, this range pot gets the described rubber band feeling and the light dependance of the two 1N4148 affects the circuit in a strong way. With 1N4001 the circuit is much more stable and - of course - light independent.

But I think I understand the way of control, the difference between linear and expo control of the frequency shifter much better now. I think, the described situation (with linear control set to zero and range turned to a high value) isn't a useful setting for a frequency shifter, maybe good for strange effects.

Until NOW, I only payed attention to the QVCO. Next experience will be, to set it up completely and listen to its frequency shifting. Wink

Anyway, somebody here made the outputs of the QVCO available at the faceplate - I *think* this is a good idea.

Toodle-oo
Bernd
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Serenadi wrote:

All I told above occurs when linear control is set to zero. I wrote, I had only the range pot connected. This means, linear control is nearly zero.


That explains a lot. As with every division by (almost) zero, the tinyest side effect will gain unexpected influence.

So the effect you describe won't really be important for "reasonable" settings, but will still shed some light (pun intended) on not-so-ordinary behaviour of components. - Yes, silicon pn junctions *are* sensitive to photons.

JH.

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