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egw
Stream Operator
Joined: Feb 01, 2003 Posts: 1569 Location: Asheville NC
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Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:55 am Post subject:
prerecorded material in performance |
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I'm curious what people think about the use of prerecorded material in a performance, both from the perspective of listener and artist.
In my mind, there is a kind of hierarchy, and one can decide where to draw the line as to what is acceptable.
1. prerecorded audio which defines the song structure (e.g. a CD)
2. fixed length midi sequences with real-time start/stop and volume control
3. midi sequences with real time tweaking and processing of sounds
4. audio loops with structural elements such as drones or rhythms
5. step sequences or midi loops
6. audio loops or phrases with sound effects or textures
7. sequences or loops created during the performance
8. everything is played live |
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elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 6:44 am Post subject:
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I guess it all depends on how the artist views his own music and what will work in order to communicate the music to the audience. I have decided to be a little more openminded about these things.. at least today.
...and .. the fusion of musician/composer/Dj/remixer has probably changed a lot of rules. ....and the tools are getting better.. "new" sequencers and "better" synths etc. will probably shift the performance standard from "way too much based on playback" back into something which is slightly more "live". |
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djfoxyfox
Janitor
Joined: Feb 05, 2003 Posts: 3211 Location: Nazareth, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 7:54 am Post subject:
Re: prerecorded material in performance |
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As a musician who likes to play notes, melodies, and chords, the ideal for me is to perform totally live. However, this is not always possible. I've seen Steve Roach and vidnaObmana play their solo instruments while a CDR of their background material plays. For them, it solves some problems like:
(1) Keeping the sound and performance quality as high as a studio work.
(2) Sounding as close to the official release as possible.
(3) how to tour without an entire studio to lug around. These are very valid points for some people. But this would never work for a jazz quartet, for example.
Your mileage may vary and your personal line might even change from one situation to another. _________________ Bill Fox------------------|\-------------
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elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:00 am Post subject:
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Good points. BTW: Elton John performed solo over here this summer using a huge keyboard and midi playback. It worked for him and the audience did not kill him when they finally figured out that:
1. All the backing instruments were performed by nonexisting musicians.. uhhhhh... eeeeeeeek
2. The backing tracks started to sound a bit dull
.. basically.. he got away wioth it and the audience loved the performance anyway.
That said.. i did not enjoy the concert that much. I found the playback tapes or midi tracks etc to be better musically than what he did.. but hey.. what do I know.. I just listened to the music.. |
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egw
Stream Operator
Joined: Feb 01, 2003 Posts: 1569 Location: Asheville NC
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Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:22 am Post subject:
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I can see that for a solo musician, having sequencer or CD backing makes it possible to do much more. And sure it's convenient. But I didn't really enjoy that aspect of Vidna's performance. I like to see the music being created. (However as a musician I'm always analyzing what's happening, instead of just listening).
In the Elton John case, I'm not surprised at all that people don't mind. He is a big name, popular artist, and people go to see him, hear him sing, and hear tunes they are familiar with. Those aspects take precedence over seeing an original performance. At least (I assume) he's playing the piano and singing. |
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seraph
Editor
Joined: Jun 21, 2003 Posts: 12398 Location: Firenze, Italy
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Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:27 am Post subject:
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I have a story:
an old guy I know plays his accordion on top of midi files (he get rid of the melody track and plays it live).
the audience started complaining that he was missing notes or playing wrong ones. Do you know how he solved the problem? He fakes his performance. He runs the midi file and moves his fingers on the accordion without playing. Do you know what the audience says? wow, he does not miss a single note! most people is not able to notice the difference. I could not do it: it's too boring.
There are interactive ways to modify a prerecorded preformance though, through a midi control device like the Peavey PC1600X (owned by egw and me, at least). there are also applications like Ableton Live that is well suited for something like this (turning tracks on and off from a midi or computer kbd and much more). I got it. It has a weird UI but once you get familiar with it you can get wild results (I am not there yet ) _________________ homepage - blog - forum - youtube
Quote: | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
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elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:28 am Post subject:
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Yeah.. he did sing a bit yeah.. and he did play his yamaha midi grand etc.
He solved this by having endless intros to each song and spending weeks ending each song.. I still suffer after that one... but.. the audience did love his performance.. just me analyzing what I hear etc etc etc.. you know.. |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 9:19 am Post subject:
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Good topic.
There are many reasons to use prerecorded material, many of them mentioned in the previous posts, but, in general, I don't care for it.
Live music is at best a personal expression performed in real time, in the presence of an audiance. It is an experience shared between the performers and those who listen. Even in a very large auditorium, there is a subconsious communication between everyone in the space. In its highest form live music is a spritural or transendental experience. When I perform in front of an audience, I feel this very strongly. Every look or sound from the audiance influences how I feel and what I play. Performing live with prerecord tracks, either in part or in total, limits this tremendously.
This is why I prefer to perform live music with other musicians, rather than with preprepared tracks. This subconsious communication in a live ensemble is fabulous. When we are "on" we are all transported to some scacred space. It beats drugs, but it is just as intense.
Elton John playing with canned backgrounds - low form. He is very talented, but to me he appears to be more about style, show business and personality. |
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elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 9:25 am Post subject:
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yeah.. well.. i would call this a mummyfied performance.
yeah.. and the topic is good. |
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seraph
Editor
Joined: Jun 21, 2003 Posts: 12398 Location: Firenze, Italy
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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:49 am Post subject:
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I found this interesting article:
The Desktop Concert
How Reason blurs the line between recording and performing
By Craig Anderton
http://www.midiman.net/news/interviews/desktopconcert.php _________________ homepage - blog - forum - youtube
Quote: | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
Last edited by seraph on Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:12 am Post subject:
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Ahh.. ok! Surfing there..
BTW: Sound On Sound magazine has a series running now that explains how to do well background tracks for live performances. They did a cute primer on click tracks last month. Obviously a lot of this info is meant for dudes doing pop and rock but a lot of this applies to our genres too.
There is a slight misunderstanding about playing to background tracks / sequencing. It is supposedly easy. Playing the music rock style.. where the whole point seems to do a rubato between the verses and hope that everyone gets back to the refrain pretty much at the same time ..will obviously not do. ... I guess all uf us have heard those polka bands from hell with 80 percent of the performance saved as a file somewhere inside a Roland performance keyboard. |
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seraph
Editor
Joined: Jun 21, 2003 Posts: 12398 Location: Firenze, Italy
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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:15 am Post subject:
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elektro80 wrote: | 80 percent of the performance saved as a file somewhere inside a Roland performance keyboard. |
I have seen even worse "performances"
100%faked _________________ homepage - blog - forum - youtube
Quote: | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
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elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:25 am Post subject:
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yes.. and the standard these days for those major star promo performances on TV is 200% canned.
Well.. doing 80% canned is not the worst thing if the actual performances are being done well. i have seen bands ( not using backing tracks) that have major problems starteing the set at the same time and ending the set at the same time. Horror.. what would you do if you discovered that the band is almost a song behind.. but you have performed your bit?? This guy I saw once solved this by hanging out in the bar while the rest of the guys struggled to get all those notes played so they could have a beer too. |
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seraph
Editor
Joined: Jun 21, 2003 Posts: 12398 Location: Firenze, Italy
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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:32 am Post subject:
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well... you could explain to the audience that that is an experiment in polytimbral, polyrhythmic..."polysong" format _________________ homepage - blog - forum - youtube
Quote: | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
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elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:51 am Post subject:
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Hmm.. in other words: ART |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:27 am Post subject:
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Sigh... What are we coming to? Who wants to go to a live canned performance? Maybe the automated performers at Disney theme parks is a sign of the future. Hell, with proper preventative maintenance they always show up to play, are never drunk, never miss a note, always sing on key - they don't even fart. |
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djfoxyfox
Janitor
Joined: Feb 05, 2003 Posts: 3211 Location: Nazareth, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:35 am Post subject:
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mosc wrote: | Sigh... What are we coming to? Who wants to go to a live canned performance? Maybe the automated performers at Disney theme parks is a sign of the future. Hell, with proper preventative maintenance they always show up to play, are never drunk, never miss a note, always sing on key - they don't even fart. | ...unless a hydraulics hose springs a leak! _________________ Bill Fox------------------|\-------------
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-----------()----soundscapes.us/bill |
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Cyxeris
Joined: Oct 30, 2003 Posts: 1125 Location: Louisville, KY
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Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:55 am Post subject:
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I don't know, the way I see it, you should be doing what you are "claiming" to be doing. In other words, if you haul a guitar on stage, play it. If you want to have a sequence going, be overt about it. Audiences are generally naive concerning the legitimacy of musicianship and it's easy to defraud them. Maybe they do not care, but do you? I suppose that is what it boils down to for me. Is one a musician or an illusionist...?
On the other hand, one is often caught in a "compromise, or nothing at all" type of situation. I've done it both ways myself, with sequences accompanying and with a completely live carbon-based ensemble. I prefer the later.
Cyx _________________ ∆ Cyx ∆
"Yeah right, who's the only one here who knows secret illegal ninja moves from the government?"
-Napoleon Dynamite |
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elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:09 pm Post subject:
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Great post, Cyxeris. |
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