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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
wish: BBD Delay
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magman



Joined: Feb 04, 2009
Posts: 361
Location: Liverpool, UK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Juergen,

Personally, I would like you to carry on with this project if possible.

My first reason is purely economic. Your boards tend to stay around one price of multiples of 27 Euros, and I suspect the BBD board would just be a single board. The Blacet board is $89, which is expensive for a bare PCB (even if there are a couple of free extra's at the moment).

Secondly, the phrase "Blacet boards being available again" is very critical. If you offer boards, they are likely to be available for a relatively long period, as long as there is a demand. The Blacet boards were only made available again as some old stock had been found and more recently an incorrect PCB order has added some more availability. I currently don't have confidence that these PCB's will be available long term.

Last, but no means least, I suspect your design would likely be different in some ways than the Blacet design. It's this variation that makes DIY synth building so interesting.

Regards

Magman
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

magman wrote:
Juergen,

Personally, I would like you to carry on with this project if possible.

My first reason is purely economic. Your boards tend to stay around one price of multiples of 27 Euros, and I suspect the BBD board would just be a single board. The Blacet board is $89, which is expensive for a bare PCB (even if there are a couple of free extra's at the moment).

Secondly, the phrase "Blacet boards being available again" is very critical. If you offer boards, they are likely to be available for a relatively long period, as long as there is a demand. The Blacet boards were only made available again as some old stock had been found and more recently an incorrect PCB order has added some more availability. I currently don't have confidence that these PCB's will be available long term.

Last, but no means least, I suspect your design would likely be different in some ways than the Blacet design. It's this variation that makes DIY synth building so interesting.

Regards

Magman


Oops, I wasn't aware the Blacet was so expensive.
What I have / had in mind was one board for a mono version, or two boards (2 * 27 Euros) for pingpong-stereo a la Dynacord SRS-56.

Well, nothing is decided yet.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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TekniK



Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 1062

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:


I know, and I think what I've underlined in the above, has happened with the Blacet boards being available again.

JH.


Juergen, no matter what u deside,but plz can you give confirmation asap if you drop the project completely or finaly plan to release a delay pcb this year?
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mark_olson



Joined: Oct 26, 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Lawrence, Kansas

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Does anyone else see humor in there being a delay in the development of a delay board?

Anyway...

Jürgen:

My understanding is that the projects you have made available have been made so out of some sense of intellectual generosity. I cannot believe that whatever small profit you might see from selling boards could justify your activities. So I could not expect you to develop anything, really do anything at all, out of a sense of obligation to us synth diyers.

I will never pay $89US for a bare PCB. I have a couple of MN3005s in a drawer. If you develop a circuit: great! If you do not: oh well... This is just a hobby for me. If I was in business I would understand that I should expect to pay somebody for research and development I could not do myself.

If you do decide to develop a circuit and offer a board, I will commit to buying one. No demands, no pressure, just a little encouragement if it is welcome Smile

Mark
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
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Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mark_olson wrote:

My understanding is that the projects you have made available have been made so out of some sense of intellectual generosity. I cannot believe that whatever small profit you might see from selling boards could justify your activities.


Thanks for your kind words.
These projects are fun, but they also are indeed part of my income (I changed my main job in the industry to part-time), and the revenues serve to bring food on my table und to support my kids. So there is a risk of only selling 50 boards and having worked for nothing (or just for the "fun" part).
Especially with a very limited resource of MN3005 chips.

I might still do it anyway, despite the doubtful prospect. Just don't press me for a decision.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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henrikgo



Joined: Jul 05, 2008
Posts: 40
Location: sweden

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have really been looking forward to this module, it would be a shame if it never gets realized. You make very nice modules J and I have no doubts you would make a more interesting module than the Blacet one. You can still get the 3005s, both dalbani & utsource have them. I really hope you decide to continue this project and I don't think I'm alone feeling that way.
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magman



Joined: Feb 04, 2009
Posts: 361
Location: Liverpool, UK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jürgen,

I have a suggestion. It can be difficult to measure the popularity of the various projects you have on your development stack, so why not try a set of Polls.

If you started a Poll thread for each of the outstanding projects, with the Polls being for the priority people would prefer for each project, you could then get a measure of how popular a particular project was, as well as to the community's preference for the most interesting.

Of the outstanding projects I've spotted so far, I can find:
    Analogue Physical Modelling
    BBD Delay
    Living Vocoder
    SEM20 Expander
If you had a Poll for each project with the following poll items:
    1st Priority
    2nd Priority
    3rd Priority
    4th Priority
    Not interested
That should go some way to helping measure the interest around your project queue.

Of course this should only be a guide, as only you can measure the amount of time and best return for this time as you develop these projects.

Regards

Magman
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TekniK



Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 1062

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mark_olson wrote:
Does anyone else see humor in there being a delay in the development of a delay board?



No,not realy, its a hobby but at the same time he is a businessman,you can see that when you look at the prices he sell occasionaly his populated pcb's.

He's not the guy that plan to work for peanuts,and he's damn right.

First of all its the fault of those guys poluating his topic with that blaced board,almost one page long,they should has created a seperate topic in the general diy forum,not here. Its the same like pissing in juergen's face,but they did not think far enough ,now you can see the result,pretty understandable.
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JoeMorris



Joined: Apr 26, 2009
Posts: 160
Location: Brighton

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Well, nothing is decided yet.

JH.


Good!

I'm sure many would agree with me in saying that an $89 time machine pcb is no substitute for the unique JH product we were looking eagerly forward to.

No pressure of course Wink
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TekniK



Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 1062

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
So there is a risk of only selling 50 boards and having worked for nothing (or just for the "fun" part).
Especially with a very limited resource of MN3005 chips.

I might still do it anyway, despite the doubtful prospect. Just don't press me for a decision.

JH.


Remember that for this project you posted clearly that you 'need' minimum 50 orders.

As now that some of your popular pcb's sold much much higher quantity and are still in demand,its understandable working to made something you know you will sell only 50 is pure time waste.

The hobby part is morphing completely into bisiness thoughts.

I completely agree with that

BUT

In respect for those that did invest in MN3005 IC's you should give a quick responce now if yes or not you plan to release a delay pcb..
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bugfight



Joined: Aug 02, 2007
Posts: 188
Location: Arlington, TX USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i will just say that i would still order 2 of yours if you make them.
it will be a disappointment if you don't but i would hold no ill will.
maybe a pre-order would make it worthwhile?
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diablojoy



Joined: Sep 07, 2008
Posts: 795
Location: melbourne australia
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I second all of bugfights remarks and also would order at least 2.
Of all of jurgens great projects this is the one i have followed with
most interest it would be a shame to see it die
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magman



Joined: Feb 04, 2009
Posts: 361
Location: Liverpool, UK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've just had another thought (dangerous I know Shocked )

Why do you just have to have one type of BBD on the board?

If there is enough real estate on the PCB, it may be possible to design the board so that it could take either the MN3005 or something more modern, like the Coolaudio MN3205 (or a pair of BL3208's). This would give the board a wider audience and lifetime as well as being usable for the older chips that people have available.

Now I'm obviously not designing the board (I know that I haven't anything like the skills that Jürgen has), so I've no idea how difficult this would be or how different the characteristics of the various chips are, but its a thought.

I'll go and hide in the corner again now and see if this post has any kind of butterfly effect. Wink

Regards

Magman
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TekniK



Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 1062

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bugfight wrote:
.
maybe a pre-order would make it worthwhile?


And so if there are not enough pre-orders ,juergen pays everyone back and pay all the paypal fees of each? lol

I think there are just near for 50 pcs that members showed interest to have a delay pcb and that is (now not) enough (anymore),so pre-orders doesn't matter.

If you have to design and R&D a circuit from scratch for 50pcs its just a total 100% time waste.
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JoeMorris



Joined: Apr 26, 2009
Posts: 160
Location: Brighton

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd be shocked if JH didnt sell a lot more than 50 if he did go ahead with this.
A JH delay would attract interest far beyond the regulars on these pages I reckon. And the chips are still available if a little pricy.
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tomcat



Joined: Oct 14, 2005
Posts: 141
Location: earth

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We can start a count how many people have mn3005 on hand for the delayed JH delay board. So it would be easier for Juergen to see if its worth to design the new board.

In my opinion ... yes please give us a JH delay


Anyway, the MN3005 ist only obsolete as NOS part. You can get new ones (well 3205) from coolaudio:

http://www.coolaudio.com/products.html

Quote:

V3205SD
Functionally compatible to MN3205*

The V3205SD is a 4096-stage low-noise, low-voltage BBD analog delay line that provides analog signal delays of up to 204.8 ms and is particularly suitable for the generation of sound effects (reverb, echo, phaser, flanger, etc.) in audio equipment such as karaoke microphones, guitar effects pedals, etc. Only available together with V3102.

V3102
Functionally compatible to MN3102*

The V3102 is a universal CMOS LSI to generate a two-phase clock signal of low output impedance, perfectly suitable to drive BBDs up to 4096 stages, such as V3207, V3208, V3205, etc.


You can get small quantities from Banzai:

http://www.banzaimusic.com/V3205.html

So go on Juergen!
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JoeMorris



Joined: Apr 26, 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MN3005 and MN3205 arent the same thing unfortunately....
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Moogah



Joined: Dec 26, 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Speaking as someone who has a pair of DIY time machines, I was still very much looking forward to this project Cool I've got plenty of MN3005's on hand, but wouldn't have any hurt feelings if you decide to shelve this.

Delay is such a useful function that I don't see a problem with having a pair of blacet's and a pair of JH's in the same system.

I would also be willing to take the risk of pre-ordering if it clarified things!
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tomcat



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JoeMorris wrote:
MN3005 and MN3205 arent the same thing unfortunately....


3205 is low voltage. You can build a circuit which accepts both. Has been done before.
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Funky40



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

henrikgo wrote:
You make very nice modules J and I have no doubts you would make a more interesting module than the Blacet one.

i'm in no doubt too.
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delayed



Joined: Jun 24, 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I still want 2 or 3 boards for this project. I have the 3005 chips waiting for the project.

It would be a good idea to double up with the 32 series chip. That should make the board long lasting. Madbean did it with his Aquaboy project.

And if you did not want to fit it on the same board perhaps you could design a small daughter board that would make it work with the lower voltage chips.
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Luka



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i would also buy a JH board over a blacet and have 3005s waiting. i'm in no hurry to build this module so nut fussed about release time.
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whomper



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I will also gladly buy at least one board. It will surely be of high quality as all of JH's work and i look forward for this project.

Have a time machine, aqua boy, PT2399 (?) and another pedal based. I just can't have enough delays...

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sduck



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd still get one or 2. I already have a TM, and have no interest in another one, but would gladly augment it with a JH design delay.

And I'm one of the ones who "invested" in a bunch of those 3005 chips - but it's no matter to me if you decide to not design this. I can surely find something else to do with these chips if need be. And I can wait also.
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TekniK



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

all the ppl that desires a pcb are now gonna posting again in a row,isn't this a bit silly,you just have to look in the previous pages of this topic ?

It will stay at the 50pcs anyhow.
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