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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
wish: BBD Delay
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I thank you all for your support.
Normally, if I have people showing interest for 40, 50 PCBs, I will sell a lot more in the long run. So I'm not afraid I won't get enough potential buyers over the years, but that the supply of chips will run out.
And using other chips is *no* option. These old BBDs that run on a rather high voltage have a unique sound, and I wouldn't replace them with modern low voltage types.
I fully understand that you you want to know what to do with the chips you bought in advance. But then again, they will not lose their value, but will gain value the more obsolete they become, so nobody will lose any money. And modern semiconductor production has its focus on small structures, which means low voltage, so it's unlikely that there will ever be a new version of the high voltage BBD chips.
As much as you want a definitive answer about this project now, I can't tell you either way. I'm aware that the sooner I provide PCBs, the more chips will be available still. There is a certain temptation to just cobble something together quickly, just to fulfill an obligation, but that's not my style, and won't live up to the high expectations you all show for my products. (Actually, I'm flattered by all the support you show me, and I thank you with all of my heart.)
So even if I have to leave you in the uncertain for even longer, be assured that having bought a few chips is a much lower risk that manufacturing a whole PCB run.
I will be moving houses soon, so it's unlikely that much will happen within the next couple of months.
Selling PCBs will go on thru this time, of course - in fact, I have stocked up on almost every previous PCB, to be able to ship orders quickly.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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TekniK



Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 1062

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

TekniK wrote:
"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
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Yes, you are right! cool

Which makes me think that I should probably start to sell my CEM and SSM chips, now that all the synths are gone that might have needed spares sooner or later ...

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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blacet



Joined: May 27, 2009
Posts: 18
Location: oregon

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: wish: BBD Delay Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We have just got in latest Rev B Time Machine PCBs in Frac or MOTM format. See below:
http://www.blacet.com/DIY.html

John

2thick4uni wrote:
Hi Jurgen,

Would there be any possibility that in the future you release a BBD delay PCB for a module similar to the delay section of your JH Matrix FX synth?

I think there could be a lot of interest in such a project (certainly from me anyhow Very Happy ) as there are very few other SDIY BBD delays out there, the only one I know of is Blacet Time Machine and it is no longer available.




Allan
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delayed



Joined: Jun 24, 2008
Posts: 129
Location: TN

PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Not to step on anyone's feet, but why are these blank boards $89?
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TekniK



Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 1062

PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Because if you wanna gain some hard to find money these days you are forced to ask such price,otherwise you work for free..

Its not a board that sells easy,you need a MN3005 to start with..
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tomcat



Joined: Oct 14, 2005
Posts: 141
Location: earth

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Maybe you should start a new thread instead of starting a blacet price discussion in Juergens thread
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blacet



Joined: May 27, 2009
Posts: 18
Location: oregon

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Time Machine moved to:
http://electro-music.com/forum/post-320654.html#320654

Now back to the JH Program!
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dingebre



Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 257
Location: Salt Lake City, UT USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
I've been thinking hard about that.
With a limited resource of MN3005 chips, the Blacet PCBs being available, and mine still in my head only ... the most sensible thing would be that all who waited for my delay, should rather jump on the Blacet offer now.

I mean, it's not decided yet, but I'd like to ask if there would be any hurt feelings from anybody who waited for my Delay, if I face the facts and shelve my project?

JH.


Doesn't hurt my feelings. I'll find a use for the MN3005s I bought. There are a lot of "vintage" delay schematics out there, and I purchased a couple of the Blacet PCBs, too...

I'll keep my eyes open for whatever project you do pursue. Good luck!

David

_________________
David M. Ingebretsen, M.S., M.E.
Collision Forensics & Enginering, Inc.

dingebre@3dphysics.net
http://www.xmission.com/~dingebre/Synthasystem.html
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PrimateSynthesis



Joined: May 02, 2008
Posts: 69
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:

And using other chips is *no* option. These old BBDs that run on a rather high voltage have a unique sound, and I wouldn't replace them with modern low voltage types....And modern semiconductor production has its focus on small structures, which means low voltage, so it's unlikely that there will ever be a new version of the high voltage BBD chips..


I totally agree that the the high-voltage BBD's sound way better than the low-voltage BBD's. Electro-Harmonix has several current products that use low-voltage BBD's that sound like ass compared to the old versions that used the MN3005.

While I understand that modern semiconductor production is focused on low-voltage, what I don't understand is why the seemingly new BBD's that are available from Chinese outfits such as Belling and Cool Audio would share that focus. The whole point of using BBD's (besides marketing) is their unique sound. So if they are going to manufacture new BBD's, then why not make the high-voltage ones that actually produce the sound people want in their pedals? It's their only market. BBD's have no other use besides producing delay effects. And any manufacturer who didn't care about that sound, and just wanted a low-voltage way to delay audio, would use digital.

So making low-voltage through-hole BBD's that do not produce the desired result makes absolutely no sense to me.
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/mr



Joined: Aug 05, 2007
Posts: 223
Location: Elektron City, Sweden
Audio files: 1

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PrimateSynthesis wrote:
jhaible wrote:

And using other chips is *no* option. These old BBDs that run on a rather high voltage have a unique sound, and I wouldn't replace them with modern low voltage types....

I totally agree that the the high-voltage BBD's sound way better than the low-voltage BBD's.

Is it possible to describe this difference in words? Smile

I mean, is is mostly higher noise level in the low-voltage BBDs, or is it mostly some kind of distortion involved in one of the types, or is it something else?

Do they just sound "better" in some hi-fi kind of sense (important back in the days, but sometimes almost the opposite nowadays), or do they have a "nicer degradation" of the signal?
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softfin



Joined: Oct 11, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Far in the north
Audio files: 1

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

/mr wrote:

I mean, is is mostly higher noise level in the low-voltage BBDs, or is it mostly some kind of distortion involved in one of the types, or is it something else?

Do they just sound "better" in some hi-fi kind of sense (important back in the days, but sometimes almost the opposite nowadays), or do they have a "nicer degradation" of the signal?



In my opinion the higher voltage ones simply sound smoother (in overall more pleasant)... but my only experience comparing the two are in guitar pedals.
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PrimateSynthesis



Joined: May 02, 2008
Posts: 69
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

/mr wrote:

Is it possible to describe this difference in words? Smile


I'm sure it's possible, but that it doesn't mean it isn't subjective.

I should probably clarify what I wrote. There is no way I know to compare the "sound" of the chips directly because they require different circuits. So a better way to put it is that the delays I've heard using low-voltage BBD's didn't sound as good as the delays I've heard using high-voltage BBD's. It could be that the delays built around high-voltage BBD's sounded better due to other reasons.

If I had to describe it, I would say the high-voltage units, in general, sounded more like tape in the way they "saturate", and the low-voltage units sounded grainier, especially when driven harder.

Now, it might be possible for some German synth genius to get a low-voltage BBD delay to sound as good as a high-voltage BBD delay. And considering the availability of the different chips, it might be worth trying. Most BBD delays use companders, and the quality of those circuits have a big influence in the way different units sound. Many delays use rather primitive envelope circuits. Using modern IC's from THAT, or building one from an OTA or discrete FET, might sound much better than the NE571 and similar chips found in vintage units. The same can also be said for differences in anti-aliasing filters.
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StephenGiles



Joined: Apr 17, 2006
Posts: 481
Location: England

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Best sounding flanger for guitar to my ears is the EH Standard Electric Mistress - no companding and minimal filtering, so you get all the dirt and nothing is lost.
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PrimateSynthesis



Joined: May 02, 2008
Posts: 69
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

StephenGiles wrote:
Best sounding flanger for guitar to my ears is the EH Standard Electric Mistress - no companding and minimal filtering, so you get all the dirt and nothing is lost.


I also have a 9V Electric Mistress, but what's a guitar? Razz

Yes, it doesn't use any compression or expansion, and it sounds great, but it's a flanger, which has a much shorter brigade of buckets, and therefore less noise. Some delays only have compression/limiting on the inputs, not the outputs. Which helps keep the signal hot and prevents distortion.
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StephenGiles



Joined: Apr 17, 2006
Posts: 481
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PrimateSynthesis wrote:
StephenGiles wrote:
Best sounding flanger for guitar to my ears is the EH Standard Electric Mistress - no companding and minimal filtering, so you get all the dirt and nothing is lost.


I also have a 9V Electric Mistress, but what's a guitar? Razz

Yes, it doesn't use any compression or expansion, and it sounds great, but it's a flanger, which has a much shorter brigade of buckets, and therefore less noise. Some delays only have compression/limiting on the inputs, not the outputs. Which helps keep the signal hot and prevents distortion.


That's interesting, the 9v version is very similar to the deluxe Electric Mistress!
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StephenGiles



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PrimateSynthesis wrote:
StephenGiles wrote:
Best sounding flanger for guitar to my ears is the EH Standard Electric Mistress - no companding and minimal filtering, so you get all the dirt and nothing is lost.


I also have a 9V Electric Mistress, but what's a guitar? Razz

Yes, it doesn't use any compression or expansion, and it sounds great, but it's a flanger, which has a much shorter brigade of buckets, and therefore less noise. Some delays only have compression/limiting on the inputs, not the outputs. Which helps keep the signal hot and prevents distortion.
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