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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Kyma
Kyma as an effects processor
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paugui



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:56 pm    Post subject: Kyma as an effects processor Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

How good is the Kyma when it comes to external processing?

Can it get good musical results with the spectacularity of an Eventide, or is it better at experimentation?


Thanks in advance

Paulo
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robsol
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't know if Kyma can completely replace your Eventide, but it's a lot more flexible. Maybe the Harmonisers have the edge in their particular type of pitchshifting, since that is their speciality. It is hard to compare them though, as Kyma just does so much more, even if you only use it for live processing.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wish I had a proper Eventide Razz
Unfortunately I only have an HM80, probably the cheapest model they did, but it still has a nice sound, despite I think mine should have the inside cleaned.

That's also why I'm asking this, cause to get an Eventide H3000D/SE I'd likely have to spend around 700 euros, but I don't think it offers the possibilities the Kyma does, and I already have other nice effects processors, including two Korg A1s and a Sony DPS-V77 for multi-effects, a Roland R880 and a Dynacord DRP20 for reverbs, a Symmetrix 606 and a Roland SRE-555 for delays, so I was thinking it could be better spend a bit more and get a Kyma, especially if it can do some nice processing too.

In what ways is the Kyma more flexible?
And excluding the harmonizer effects, are the effects of the Kyma as good as the ones in the Eventide?

Also, with an old model (I don't think I can afford a Paca or a Pacarana soon...), will it still have enough power to do some complex effects?


Thanks

Paulo
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmmm... You could get a Capybara 360 with the stock cards and that would compare pretty well to a Harmonizer in terms of processing power alone. Prices are coming down I think. However...

Kyma is a modular type sound design workstation, and have just about everything you need to explore synthesis and composition ideas, plus a few things you won't find anywhere else. It's sound quality is absolutely superb, and I don't think you would have any problems emulating most personality traits of an Eventide. It has a steep and long learning curve, and does things in slightly unorthodox ways. Not everyone likes the Smalltalk type language you use for parameter fields either, and I can testify that it takes all you've got to get to know Kyma. I have long been a hardware kinda guy so it has been a big culture shock for me.

If you are curious about Kyma it is worth ordering "Kyma X Revealed" from Symbolic Sound to get an idea of what it's all about. One thing to remember though, it is deep, very deep. Very very deep.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is that book available as PDF, or it's only possible to buy it?


If I get a Capybara 360, can I use it with my iMac G5, or do I need a PCI board?

Also, is it worth getting one without any expansion?
Is it still powerful enough, or will I feel I need more power as soon as I start learning how to use it?

And what's the current going price for one?


Another thing that worries me is the learning curve...
I am studying abroad, so I don't get too much time at home to use my equipment...
Will it still be worth getting one considering this?

I'd guess the Eventides are not that easy to use either, so if there is a nice set of patches available, it would probably still be a better choice...
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't think there is a pdf available, maybe you can find the book second hand somewhere.

I am pretty sure your iMac will be ok, but I don't know for sure. I do think that you will soon want to expand it though if you get a Capy... It is very demading on your time unless you are already very stable in programming, maths, DSP, synthesis and so on... Trust me, any Eventide is fairly easy to use compared to Kyma. Wink

Remember that the type of environment that Kyma offers also is roughly available in Supercollider, Reaktor, Max, Plogue etc... For much less money, if that is the way you want to go.

As for prices, I'm really don't know... I see them around but don't remember any prices offhand. My advice would be to wait, and get a Paca at least, when you can afford one.

You know what they say... Either invest your money or invest your time, not both at once. Well, I wasn't listening. Mr. Green

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

But are those other languages as powerful?
And are there many algorithms available for them too?

Cause that could be an interesting idea too...


However, since the learning curve is step, I was wondering if it would be really worth getting into them if I plan to get a Kyma...

Wouldn't it be better to learn how to use one properly instead?

And if that's the case, I'd guess the Kyma is the best investment, considering also the computational power given by the hardware and the community / costumer support, despite being paid, right?


Also, since you said it would be wiser to wait and get a newer system, is it possible to come up with the same kind of quality from the Nord Modulars, or is it completely different?

When I check new presets from this forum, I usually notice that I there is a lot I don't understand yet, so I'm wondering if it wouldn't be indeed a better idea to explore more my modulars (especially since I have 2 G2Xs a G1 expanded and a MM) and when the Paca or Pacarana drops in price, or when I find a cheap Capybara, I try to get it...


Thanks again for your help

Paulo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

paugui wrote:
But are those other languages as powerful?
And are there many algorithms available for them too?


Yes, they are powerful, and they all have hordes of algorithms. They all differ in various ways, even in sound. What they all have in common (except a few, like Scope for example) is that they all run directly in the host computer. This also means that it is easy to demo them. Puredata, Supercollider and Csound are all free, and very powerful indeed, all you need is the time to learn them.

How much time depends on how well you already know a few things... Some depend on you knowing a programming language well, others are based on a "virtual hardware" graphic approach, like the Nords for example. I would recommend that you get at least one free software and play around... What you learn in one environment will benefit you in an other. Imo Kyma is very flexible and will let you do things in a lot of different ways. There are obviously things which are easier to script than to set up graphically,and I would say that Kyma comes from a software philosophy, in that it does not resemble a hardware modular really.


Quote:
However, since the learning curve is step, I was wondering if it would be really worth getting into them if I plan to get a Kyma...

Wouldn't it be better to learn how to use one properly instead?

And if that's the case, I'd guess the Kyma is the best investment, considering also the computational power given by the hardware and the community / costumer support, despite being paid, right?


One area where Kyma differs a lot from, say, Reaktor is that there are a lot fewer "Sound Banks" available. You won't find vast amounts of replicas of famous gear (although a couple exist of course) and it does not seem that this is the philosophy of the system. It is rather a creative sound design platform where you explore your own original ideas. It is a small community and far from as active as the NI community which has a rather large amount of users.

Quote:
Also, since you said it would be wiser to wait and get a newer system, is it possible to come up with the same kind of quality from the Nord Modulars, or is it completely different?


There are vast differences between Kyma and the Nord Modulars - for one, Kyma has more RAM and DSP power available, and a wider pallette for synthesis and processing, like sampling, FFT processing or convolution etc etc. I am very impressed by the creativity in the Nord patches I see here though. As you probably know, limitations can spark creativity as well. I don't have a Nord Modular but I have played around with the free software from Clavia and I like it. A similar approach can be found in Synthedit (free for non-commercial use), which allows you to make VSTi plugins for use in your DAW, Creamware Scope (worth considering if you are going to roll out the big cash), or Tassman, a software modular. There are lots more choices out there too.

Quote:
When I check new presets from this forum, I usually notice that I there is a lot I don't understand yet, so I'm wondering if it wouldn't be indeed a better idea to explore more my modulars (especially since I have 2 G2Xs a G1 expanded and a MM) and when the Paca or Pacarana drops in price, or when I find a cheap Capybara, I try to get it...


There is a great deal of things I don't know yet either, but what I have or don't have does not stop me from continuing my explorations - knowing when to strike for that bargain is a skill in itself, and holding back is some times not so easy. I can't advise you on that, it is something that you learn as you go along. Making some mistakes on the way is part of the process... Exploring something in depth is always a good thing though!

Why did I chose Kyma? I was first made aware of it 15 or so years ago by a friend and have been curious about it ever since. Whatever I heard of sounds coming out of it I loved! I also like unconventional thinking and ideas... To give an example I don't want a chorus with a predictable cycling LFO, or 35 different carefully modelled vintage analog compressor models to chose from. The design philosophy is also commendable, with no fear of being different from the pack being an obvious perk in my book. I have had my periods of doubt though, and still feel like I am splashing around on the beach of a vast ocean that I will need a few lifetimes to explore. It was a conscious decision of mine to get something very flexible so that my creativity and focus would have to be stepped up a notch. Now I do not look for more things to buy, but for more things to learn. Smile

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I got a Scope board with 6 DSPs recently, but I still have to check how to get the Modular to work, cause the previous owner said to me it was running, but I wasn't able to run it so far...

But I thought the Scope was more similar to the G2, at least in term of interface...
Can it do similar things to Kyma, or the FFT processing and convolution are not possible (I think the modular has sampling modules, right?).
I was also thinking of expanding this system, if I am pleased with modular, but was considering it more as another tool rather than a substitute for Kyma, but given the prices of the Scope boards and the Kyma ones... it would be much cheaper just to expand my Scope system Razz


By the way, from those languages, which one do you think is the best to start with?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BobTheDog posted several demos of his Kyma being used as a guitar processor.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GovernorSilver wrote:
BobTheDog posted several demos of his Kyma being used as a guitar processor.


Do you have the link? Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://electro-music.com/forum/post-244368.html#244368

That is a little walkthrough I did.

Don't get a Kyma system if you want fast results though, I think it takes years to learn.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've been using my Pacarana as an outbound effects processor with Live, partly because I don't have time to learn it soup-to-nuts before performing with it, and partly because I like to do overall arrangements and mixing in Live.

So far I have been tweaking patches that come with it (so-called "Sounds") rather than designing them from scratch, and using them as outbound FX. This includes sounds synthesized by the Java MIDI library, live banjo and guitar samples that have already been processed somewhat in Live, whatever audio stream I feel like running through Kyma.

I am extremely impressed with the sound quality. I don't know if I would have spent the money, but I got it via a grant, and am glad I did. If I had to pay out of pocket, I'd probably go with SuperCollider for starters. More mandatory programming, but I am a programmer. SC patches I have heard indicate excellent quality of the ugens, and it can do FFT, etc. Also, I don't see much load on my MacBook Pro dual core CPU, and if you are running multiple audio processing programs, then taking advantage of 4 or more cores should be automatic without multithreaded audio engines. I suspect multicores will cut into Kyma's CPU argument, but the sound quality is a good argument for getting one.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

paugui wrote:

By the way, from those languages, which one do you think is the best to start with?


Well, Supercollider is partly based on smalltalk, so there would be familiar elements if you move to Kyma later. Puredata/Max is by far the most flexible/impenetrable. In some ways, learning a pure programming language, like Squeak (smalltalk) would be a benefit is you are sure you want to use Kyma at some point. According to somebody I know, if you want to impress the chicks, C is the only option. Razz

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BobTheDog wrote:
http://electro-music.com/forum/post-244368.html#244368

That is a little walkthrough I did.

Don't get a Kyma system if you want fast results though, I think it takes years to learn.



Cool Smile
The processed sound is pretty cool indeed.


I'm not expecting fast results, guess it is much more complicated than the Nord Modulars, which I understand but looking at some complex patches in here, I see I still have lots to learn.

What I expect is, using algorithms that are already prepared, I can do some really good processing with it.
I hope with those algorithms it's possible to produce something nice without waiting for too long, but I get that to build everything from scratch will take a lot more time...
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Acoustic Interloper wrote:
I've been using my Pacarana as an outbound effects processor with Live, partly because I don't have time to learn it soup-to-nuts before performing with it, and partly because I like to do overall arrangements and mixing in Live.

So far I have been tweaking patches that come with it (so-called "Sounds") rather than designing them from scratch, and using them as outbound FX. This includes sounds synthesized by the Java MIDI library, live banjo and guitar samples that have already been processed somewhat in Live, whatever audio stream I feel like running through Kyma.

I am extremely impressed with the sound quality. I don't know if I would have spent the money, but I got it via a grant, and am glad I did. If I had to pay out of pocket, I'd probably go with SuperCollider for starters. More mandatory programming, but I am a programmer. SC patches I have heard indicate excellent quality of the ugens, and it can do FFT, etc. Also, I don't see much load on my MacBook Pro dual core CPU, and if you are running multiple audio processing programs, then taking advantage of 4 or more cores should be automatic without multithreaded audio engines. I suspect multicores will cut into Kyma's CPU argument, but the sound quality is a good argument for getting one.



Money is the reason why I'm only thinking about an older model...

I guess with a lower cost it might be something interesting to explore, but I guess I'll try SuperCollider first then Smile

By the way, if you have some demos of the processing stuff you've been doing with it, I'd love to take a listen Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Muied Lumens wrote:
paugui wrote:

By the way, from those languages, which one do you think is the best to start with?


Well, Supercollider is partly based on smalltalk, so there would be familiar elements if you move to Kyma later. Puredata/Max is by far the most flexible/impenetrable. In some ways, learning a pure programming language, like Squeak (smalltalk) would be a benefit is you are sure you want to use Kyma at some point. According to somebody I know, if you want to impress the chicks, C is the only option. Razz



Mathematica is a cool language too, despite a bit buggy Razz

I have actually done a program to create a synth based in chaotic waveforms, given by the Lorenz attractor and so on.
It produced some nice waveforms, especially using FM to it Wink

Can try to check where I have some demos of it, if anyone is interested.


The programming language on Kyma is completely different from C?
I learnt C and C++, so if it can make the learning process faster, it would be a plus to learn those languages Smile


By the way, since you mentioned before the Kyma is able to do convolution, can it use that method to produce reverbs, like the Yamaha S-REV1 and Sony DRE-S777 did?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

paugui wrote:

The programming language on Kyma is completely different from C?
I learnt C and C++, so if it can make the learning process faster, it would be a plus to learn those languages Smile


Yes there are differences, but I am not a C or C++ programmer so I don't really know what the big differences are between them and Smalltalk.


Quote:
By the way, since you mentioned before the Kyma is able to do convolution, can it use that method to produce reverbs, like the Yamaha S-REV1 and Sony DRE-S777 did?


Yes, but worth mentioning is that the convolution in Kyma (called cross-synthesis) is very power hungry, and I can get longer impulses in my PC than I can in my Paca. An other thing worth mentioning is that you can capture impulses in real time, as you are playing.

Your chaotic waves sound cool! Post some audio! Smile

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

paugui wrote:

I guess with a lower cost it might be something interesting to explore, but I guess I'll try SuperCollider first then Smile

There is an excellent SC book out this year, I highly recommend it.

Quote:
By the way, if you have some demos of the processing stuff you've been doing with it, I'd love to take a listen Smile


It's really tightly integrated into other signal processing I am doing with Java, Ableton Live, StringStudio soft synthesizers and live sampled sound, nothing I can post stand-alone. But, I'll keep it in mind for the future. If you check the first performance of this event on radio.electro-music.com, you'll hear it in the mix in a few places -- where discrete sounds fade out into a sort of wash that uses stereo cross-channel coupling to wash out the sound, later another effect that adds turbulence to a sound, and another that adds granulation. I am really just getting started with Kyma.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'll try to post some samples of the code I developed for Mathematica in here tomorrow.
I need to clean the laptop first... I'm running out of space in my HD :S


By the way, is this a reasonable machine to get, or way too outdated:

http://cgi.ebay.de/Kyma-Capybara-System-66-voll-Aufgerustet-fully-expanded-/270804396629?pt=Studioequipment&hash=item3f0d332a55#ht_3688wt_714

I guess the price is not good, since that guy usually puts the prices as high as possible, but since it's fully expanded, it could still be powerful enough, and it's not way too much cash for it...
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmmm, I wouldn't get such an old system unless given to me...

Specs are here: http://www.symbolicsound.com/kyma-capyinfo.html

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BTW have you seen this thread on gearslutz? Lots of info in it, even if it is a couple of years now.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/343085-kyma-compared-max-msp-nord-modular.html

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:54 am    Post subject: Re: Kyma as an effects processor Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi paulo

i have both kyma and h8000 on and off over the years and they are different worlds.I tried many patches in kyma that i made for the h8000 using large reverb and picth shifting combined with delay and the results are very different.I dont think kyma has the tone or depth of the H8000's sound at all , an eventide will always have a certain sound and Kyma also.

For me Kyma 's power is in resynthesis and cross synthesis and convolution etc and all that side , fragmenting , granular etc.

H8000 is just a very high end multi fx which can combine multiple reverbs of the highest quality with pitching and everything else in between in 1 patch !

They cant replace each other.

Of course that does not mean Kyma isnt a great external fx processor , its great on a send and return of a mixer or 2 and i do love its own reverbs and delays etc which have a character of their own.
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