electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Articles  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links  |  Store
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
Live streaming at radio.electro-music.com

  host / artist show at your time
  mosc Back on the air tonight - Twyndyllyngs
Please visit the chat
 Forum index » Discussion » Composition
How Much Randomness is Too Much?
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: elektro80
Page 1 of 1 [19 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
Jack_Hertz



Joined: May 14, 2010
Posts: 358
Location: Pacifica, CA
Audio files: 121
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:58 am    Post subject: How Much Randomness is Too Much? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I like to use generative elements in composition, but I find myself struggling with some questions that I wanted to to open up to you all:

How much randomizing is too much?

Is a composition that is 100% randomly generated still a composition?

Where do you draw the line on non-human input?

_________________
Jack Hertz.com | Aural Films Label
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Blue Hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20623
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 150
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

100% random is white noise I'd think ... which may be a bit boring to serve as music ... at least I'd want to structure that a bit maybe with amplitude changes, and filter it a bit, making it less than 100% random.

I don't really know how much random is actually left in the generative stuff I make, not too much I think ... but it's a balance for me, not enough randomness tends to make repetitive things where all I have available is short sequences .. of say up to 128 steps.

_________________
Jan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
cbm



Joined: Oct 25, 2005
Posts: 381
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Constraints are what turns randomness into composition. Every decision can be made randomly, if the constraint framework is in place to make those random decisions interesting. The constraint framework is the score which the random processes improvise upon.
_________________
Chris Muir
http://www.eardrill.com <– My jobby (more than a hobby, less than a job)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jack_Hertz



Joined: May 14, 2010
Posts: 358
Location: Pacifica, CA
Audio files: 121
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good point! 100% would be white noise. Very Happy

I am not exactly sure how to say it. I wonder what others who have bare using noodles, field recordings or other generative sources think about how much of the work is the source and how much is them.

_________________
Jack Hertz.com | Aural Films Label

Last edited by Jack_Hertz on Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jack_Hertz



Joined: May 14, 2010
Posts: 358
Location: Pacifica, CA
Audio files: 121
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cbm wrote:
The constraint framework is the score which the random processes improvise upon.


Very, interesting take.

_________________
Jack Hertz.com | Aural Films Label
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jack_Hertz



Joined: May 14, 2010
Posts: 358
Location: Pacifica, CA
Audio files: 121
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

FWIW. Not to make a case, just what's on the extreme end. Look at something like WolframTones. If you click that link, it will play something based on no decisions other than to click the link. http://tones.wolfram.com/generate/
_________________
Jack Hertz.com | Aural Films Label
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
cbm



Joined: Oct 25, 2005
Posts: 381
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jack_Hertz wrote:
FWIW. Not to make a case, just what's on the extreme end. Look at something like WolframTones. If you click that link, it will play something based on no decisions other than to click the link.

There were lots of decisions made before something is generated w/ Wolfram. The system has rules regarding most aspects of the music. The rule framework provide the recognizable styles, while much of the specifics of exactly what to play in those styles is randomized.

_________________
Chris Muir
http://www.eardrill.com <– My jobby (more than a hobby, less than a job)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
100% random is white noise I'd think ... which may be a bit boring to serve as music ...


Don't listen to this guy. He's made a career on making random noodle muzak!! Laughing Laughing Laughing

All HAIL to the sample and hold!! Very Happy Laughing Laughing Laughing

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Blue Hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20623
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 150
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cbm wrote:
There were lots of decisions made before[...]


When playing "random notes" you'll have to decide about several things ... what pitches will will you allow, is there a relation between previous and future pitches, how short can a note be and how long, when will a note play and when will no notes play, what "instruments" will it use, how will it be modulated during it's existence, and how will all those things change over time.

_________________
Jan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
cbm



Joined: Oct 25, 2005
Posts: 381
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Totally agree. My software step sequencer, Gyre, has the ability to control many of these parameters.
_________________
Chris Muir
http://www.eardrill.com <– My jobby (more than a hobby, less than a job)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Blue Hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20623
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 150
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cbm wrote:
Gyre


Looks like a nice one!

_________________
Jan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jack_Hertz



Joined: May 14, 2010
Posts: 358
Location: Pacifica, CA
Audio files: 121
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sometimes you have to decide. Sometimes I find myself starting with something random to give me a choice of possible directions. Which do end up being rules / decisions at some point.

FYI. I wasn't aware of a term, but it was pointed out to me that "Aleatoric Music" is the term for music based on chance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleatoric_music

_________________
Jack Hertz.com | Aural Films Label
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jack_Hertz



Joined: May 14, 2010
Posts: 358
Location: Pacifica, CA
Audio files: 121
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
cbm wrote:
Gyre


Looks like a nice one!


Whoa, its massive. One of these daze I will get a handle on Max.

_________________
Jack Hertz.com | Aural Films Label
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Antimon



Joined: Jan 18, 2005
Posts: 3730
Location: Sweden
Audio files: 275
G2 patch files: 96

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I start with something random, and then cut it down by imposing restrictions - making wheighted selectors etc. However, I am often surprised at how little I need to restrict before I start to enjoy it, spending 10 minutes listening to something that is obviously random. I'm easy to please I guess.

/Stefan

_________________
Antimon's Window
@soundcloud @Flattr home - you can't explain music
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
[Q]



Joined: Sep 09, 2010
Posts: 413
Location: Continuum
Audio files: 57

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great thread... Thought provoking..

I like Chris' concept of a Constraint Framework. Smile
so I started a new thread so as not to disturb the flow here.


http://electro-music.com/forum/post-344832.html#344832
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

underpinned by a rhythmic, and therefore non-random counterpoint, but nether the less, I found it quite fitting to post... (I couldn't find side 1 which I personally prefer!);


_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
-minus-



Joined: Oct 26, 2008
Posts: 761

Audio files: 13

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There's always intent behind the decision to use randomness, and I'm not sure that is purely random.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
modulator_esp
Stream Operator


Joined: Feb 04, 2005
Posts: 2323
Location: Nottingham, UK
Audio files: 191
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I like to add a bit of randomness/ chaos to self-generating parts of a performance to make them more interesting

Too much randomness for me would be where the end result is too unpredictable for me to play along

_________________
Jez
music | adventures in sound
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Mongo1



Joined: Aug 11, 2011
Posts: 411
Location: Raleigh NC

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just my $.02 - the human brain looks for patterns constantly. It needs patterns. If no pattern is present it looks for one anyway. If you give people a sample of white noise and ask "Did you HEAR that?", they will generally believe they DID hear something - maybe it's an alien or a ghost, but they'll find it whether it exists or not.

When the brain cannot find a pattern, it eventually gives up. When you go to the ocean and listen to waves, you relax. I think it's because your brain gives up and finally just decides to switch off a little bit. The same thing happens when any truly random white noise is experienced. The wind in the desert causes the same relaxation.

On the other hand, when the brain is actively searching for a pattern, and it finds one, it relaxes and feels better. But - if the pattern is repeated too much, the brain becomes bored - it starts looking for variation again. If the pattern persists, the brain ignores it and looks for something else.

So it's clearly a balance. The pattern forms the basis, and the randomness keeps it fresh. Our brains seem to be actively engaged only in this middle zone. If there is no pattern, we ignore it. If there is too much of a pattern, we ignore it. I guess that makes sense from a survival skills perspective.

Gary
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: elektro80
Page 1 of 1 [19 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Discussion » Composition
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
e-m mkii

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from
our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use