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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Ken Stone designs - CGS
tube vca modifications and results
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RSFC



Joined: Sep 02, 2010
Posts: 63
Location: space lab

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I builts 2 of these one is working and one is not... sorta. I did find that these actually make nice sounding passive VCAs as well as active. I can run a singal though and CV control the one that isn't working correctly (or the other one that is, unpowered) and it actually has a nice colored sound that is a bit more smooth and less aggressive than the one working actively. I'm half tempted to use it as is but I should probably figure out what the problem is. As soon as I apply power to it, no signal passes through. I'm guess it is shorted somewhere but I haven't figured it out yet.
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bassculture



Joined: Jan 23, 2011
Posts: 12
Location: france

PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i suppose there shouldn't by any output without a short Wink

sound interresting anyway !

maybe send fotos ?
did you make any mods compared to the stock version ?
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RSFC



Joined: Sep 02, 2010
Posts: 63
Location: space lab

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The only intentional difference is that I chose a different bias mode for each board. I think the non-working one has the "modified bias". Otherwise it should be the same. I am fairly certain that both of them can be used passively. I just get no output once I apply power to one of them.... The only other mod I did was for feedback but it works fine on one of the 2...
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bassculture



Joined: Jan 23, 2011
Posts: 12
Location: france

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

anyone on the mods and ARP2600 questions ?

(previous page)
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bassculture



Joined: Jan 23, 2011
Posts: 12
Location: france

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi,

anyone on modifying the inputs and outputs to use it with an ARP2600 (20Vpp) ?

espacially impedance issues ?
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PrimateSynthesis



Joined: May 02, 2008
Posts: 69
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bassculture wrote:
hi,

anyone on modifying the inputs and outputs to use it with an ARP2600 (20Vpp) ?

espacially impedance issues ?


Funny, I don't seem to be getting notices from this thread, as I just saw this now.

What, specifically are your questions regarding its use with a 2600? If you could post the impedances and voltage levels of the ARP, I'm sure someone could help.
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bassculture



Joined: Jan 23, 2011
Posts: 12
Location: france

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi mark,

i'm really glad you're around here cause i'm currently testing a CGS65 based on some of your modifications.

Thank you for sharing those !!!

about the ARP :
the signal voltage is 10Vpp
filter output is always +5Vmax, but can go beyond 10Vpp
(like +5 / -15V when you have all 5 input full)
same with the VCA
CV range is 10Vpp
envelloppe : 0 - +10V
althought the simple AR generates 0 - +8V max.
note : the preamp is really nasty and can go beyond 30Vpp (can't measure it exactly - my oscilloscope input is clipping)

so i think there's no need for modification on the voltages sides ?

for impedance, how you would mesure it ?

modifications :
i'm having trouble understanding the exact function of the LED's and diodes on the original circuit.

it doesn't sound the way it should. my two problems are :
the output of the CGS65 seems to be rectified (only positive side)
althought the output level is ok.
and i'm only having a usable range in the last 1/5 of the gain pot.
gain seem to low - can't get that "scream".

i'm going back with voltage measurements tonight or tomorow morning

P.S: really cool looking at the CGS65 waveshaping on the oscilloscope Wink
in his own, the ARP is kind of a big waveshaping thing too... you'll never get the same thing in and out of a part of it Wink
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PrimateSynthesis



Joined: May 02, 2008
Posts: 69
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bassculture wrote:

envelloppe : 0 - +10V
althought the simple AR generates 0 - +8V max.

so i think there's no need for modification on the voltages sides ?


It doesn't look like it. I adjusted mine so that the CV input and the Gain knob had the same range for a 0-5V envelope. Once you get it working you could adjust the resistor values for 8V or 10V.

bassculture wrote:
for impedance, how you would mesure it ?


Unless the ARP has an unusually high output impedance, or unusually low input impedance, it's a non-issue.

bassculture wrote:

i'm having trouble understanding the exact function of the LED's and diodes on the original circuit.


I replaced them with a resistor. I wouldn't recommend mixing my cathode circuit with the original.

bassculture wrote:

the output of the CGS65 seems to be rectified (only positive side)
althought the output level is ok.


Then I would trace the signal and see where that occurs. The output should not be single-sided.

bassculture wrote:

and i'm only having a usable range in the last 1/5 of the gain pot.
gain seem to low - can't get that "scream".


Then you need to figure out whether it is a problem with the CV circuit, or the audio circuit. I haven't looked at this thing in a long time, so I don't remember what the voltage range was on the control grid. Perhaps you have the offset voltage set too high, and you are burying most of the CV range? Regardless, the CV circuit is very simple. So I would trace the DC voltages to see if it is working properly. Check the voltages on pin 7 and pin 6, and pins 2 and 1, and that they are working as inverted amplifiers.

Also which op-amp did you use?
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bassculture



Joined: Jan 23, 2011
Posts: 12
Location: france

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi !

ok, i correct my mistake (i didn't removed the 2 4041 diodes)
also the initial CV trimmer was set too low.
now everything seems to work ok.

but the gain range is stil at the end of the pot curve (linear pot)

so this the modifications i take from your first post :
i just take the leds and 1,5K and diodes and replaced them with 1,2K

i will add the 47uF cap with a switch also

i modified the inputs, outputs and bias switch like will and dave do :
http://www.dragonflyalley.com/constructionCGS65tubeVCA.htm
they stick to the MOTM format which has the same voltage as the ARP
(i hope i get everything right)

in fact the gain pot is acting like a fixed CV level ?
the real "tone shaper" is the input pot.

now i'm wondering how to get a CV to control the input level
do you have any tips on how achieving this with a few components more ?

or maybe that would be better messing mith the "quality / gain" resistor
(i have 8K2 in place - but thinking about soldering a pot in there)

plugging a CV in an audio input is a great sounding option to get around this, but not the same Wink

kind of a messy post, but any thought from an expert like you will be appreciated Wink

thanks for sharing !
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PrimateSynthesis



Joined: May 02, 2008
Posts: 69
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bassculture wrote:

ok, i correct my mistake (i didn't removed the 2 4041 diodes)
also the initial CV trimmer was set too low.
now everything seems to work ok.


That's good.

bassculture wrote:

but the gain range is stil at the end of the pot curve (linear pot)


Are we talking about the Gain/CV pot or the input pot? You might prefer an audio taper for the audio inputs. I used linear because that's what I had.

bassculture wrote:

i will add the 47uF cap with a switch also


You mean the cathode cap? I wouldn't use a switch because the wiring will do two things you don't want -- add an antenna, and add impedance. And I don't see a point in being able to switch it on and off. Do make sure it is on the correct side, and you use a heater resistor that can handle the current. I used a 1/2W.

bassculture wrote:

in fact the gain pot is acting like a fixed CV level ?


The Gain pot is a fixed CV level.

bassculture wrote:

now i'm wondering how to get a CV to control the input level
do you have any tips on how achieving this with a few components more ?


You mean another VCA going into the VCA??
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bassculture



Joined: Jan 23, 2011
Posts: 12
Location: france

PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi, i too, haven't been notified of your answer...

Quote:
bassculture wrote:

but the gain range is stil at the end of the pot curve (linear pot)


Are we talking about the Gain/CV pot or the input pot? You might prefer an audio taper for the audio inputs. I used linear because that's what I had.


i'm talking about the gain pot

if i have the intial CV trimmer higher (3/4), i have nice progressive range on that gain pot but, then the CV has an effect only if gain pot is from 0 to 1/4.
after 1/4 on gain pot, it's squashed by the fixed CV/gain

so i have my initial CV trimmer around the middle, so the CV didn't get squashed to soon when i raise the gain...

but finding the sweet spot beetween intial CV / CV in / gain is quiet... hum ... could be better Wink



Quote:
bassculture wrote:

now i'm wondering how to get a CV to control the input level
do you have any tips on how achieving this with a few components more ?


You mean another VCA going into the VCA??


maybe there's another way of doing it directly on the circuit...
plugging a CV in an audio input do not do exactly the same, but that's closer.
moving the input knob with my finger is the closest but the Human VCA has fairly poor specs Wink)


what i'm pointing is that's the input that really has an impact on the spectrum, and that's what i want to modulate with the CV.
that would turn the circuit in a Voltage Controlled Saturator Wink

any tips on how achieving this would gain you my eternal gratitude... and a nice meal if you ever come to my place (France) Wink

this circuit is not just a VCA, it desserve more !


VOLTAGES :
i'm pretty surprised by them...

1 : -13,92
2 : -14,85
3 : 0.0
4 : - 14,86
5 : + 13,50
6 : - 14,39

with another tube, i got the same exept -20.06 at Pin 6...

initial CV trimmer at 12oclock, gain max, input max.
i mesured beetween the ground of my power supply and the pins.

on another thread, that was the voltage of a working unit that a user posted - i.e. not with your mods
Pin # Working Unit
1) 13.68
2) -14.96
3) -.8
4) -14.96
5) 11.81
6) -15.02

...
note i didn't solder the 47uF beetween pin 2 & ground, but i don't think that interact...

I didn't follow your mods 100% because some things where unclear...
i will do a post with my questions asap.

thanks again !
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PrimateSynthesis



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bassculture wrote:

so i have my initial CV trimmer around the middle, so the CV didn't get squashed to soon when i raise the gain...


I would set the trimmer such that there is no output when the Gain pot and CV input is zero. You can change the CV scaling by changing its input resistor. See above.

Also, the grid bias has a significant effect on how it sounds and functions.

You could also change where the suppression grid is connected, making its voltage more positive increases the gain of the tube.
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bassculture



Joined: Jan 23, 2011
Posts: 12
Location: france

PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I would set the trimmer such that there is no output when the Gain pot and CV input is zero. You can change the CV scaling by changing its input resistor. See above.


thanks Wink

Quote:
You could also change where the suppression grid is connected, making its voltage more positive increases the gain of the tube.


thank you again, can you confirm this tube pinout :
1 - heater
2 - heater
3 - suppression grid
4 - screen grid
5 - control grid
6 - cathode
7 - anode
can't go further by myself without being sure of it Wink

Quote:
Also, the grid bias has a significant effect on how it sounds and functions.


did the 220n DC blocking caps (i assume) play a part in the the biasing too ?

i haven't been able to find reliable biasing infos on this tube.
do you have any ?

thanks again !
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PrimateSynthesis



Joined: May 02, 2008
Posts: 69
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bassculture wrote:

thank you again, can you confirm this tube pinout :
1 - heater
2 - heater
3 - suppression grid
4 - screen grid
5 - control grid
6 - cathode
7 - anode


That is not correct. This tube uses a filamentary cathode, so pins 1 and 2 are the heater and the cathode. Pin 3 is a shield. Pin 4 is the suppression grid. Pin 6 is the signal grid.

http://dl3jin.de/mig40-data/1sh24b.pdf


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bassculture



Joined: Jan 23, 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi !

thanks for the Schematic on page 1 !!

to sum up >
pin 1 & 2 : heater & cathode
pin 3 : shield
pin 4 : suppression grid
pin 5 : control grid
pin 6 : signal grid
pin 7 : anode

THANKS Wink - things are a lot clearer to me !

1// i've messed with quality / gain resistor : i put a reostat between that resistor and +15V. even with a 50K pot (58,2K total R), nothing "strange" happens (has ken stated - your cathode circuit maybe responsible for that), just more gain Sad
i try different types of signal (steady or sweeping, rich or poor) and hear nothing noticeable.

2// i'm gonna try that :
Quote:
Wire the grid to a rheostat, then to the wiper of a pot set up as a voltage divider between -15V and ground


do i need a minimum resistance between the grid and the reostat (like the 330K i have now) ?
i mean as long as the grid is negative relative to the anode, it works ?
for exemple if the grid (pin 6) is directly connected to the ground or to -Ve?

Quote:
If you used a buffer, you could even normal the -15V to a CV input jack.


i think that's exactly what i'm after, will it look like this :
(see attached file)


buffer_schemo.gif
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PrimateSynthesis



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bassculture wrote:

1// i've messed with quality / gain resistor : i put a reostat between that resistor and +15V. even with a 50K pot (58,2K total R), nothing "strange" happens (has ken stated - your cathode circuit maybe responsible for that), just more gain Sad


I didn't put any effort into trying to get more gain out of the tube, but in getting a clean signal over a wide frequency range. Most VCA's are voltage controlled attenuators in practice. However, more gain might be an improvement, but who knows how much current it can handle? Sometimes I think some input gain could be helpful, and I might try decreasing the input resistors to the summing amp...

bassculture wrote:

2// i'm gonna try that :
Quote:
Wire the grid to a rheostat, then to the wiper of a pot set up as a voltage divider between -15V and ground


do i need a minimum resistance between the grid and the reostat (like the 330K i have now) ?
i mean as long as the grid is negative relative to the anode, it works ?
for exemple if the grid (pin 6) is directly connected to the ground or to -Ve?

Quote:
If you used a buffer, you could even normal the -15V to a CV input jack.


That's if you wanted CV controlled bias, but I haven't given it much thought, so please ignore whatever I might have said there Shocked

The biasing on this thing is just weird, as most tubes do not use a bipolar supply, and the cathode is generally near ground in similar circuits. Regardless, there needs to be a minimum AC impedance between the signal and ground or either rail. Frankly, I'm surprised such a small resistor between the grid and negative rail works as well as it does.

Also that schematic you posted looks rather confused. I don't know where you got an "R4" of 100K, where you think it connects. The audio signal is AC coupled to the grid. Why don't you try building either my circuit, or Ken's circuit, without changing anything, and see if that works?
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bassculture



Joined: Jan 23, 2011
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Location: france

PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi Wink

don't want to bother you !
i go to sleep smarter everyday this week Wink
thank you !

for the moment i got a working circuit and i'm pretty satisfied with what i can do with it.
i think i get best of both (ken and yours) approach for my needs.

but as long as i'm building a few a these for myself and for some friends...
before going into the building process (schaeffer faceplates / heatshrink and all that...) i wanted to do my best to see what extra features are possible to add.

i'm looking for either that "clean" tube warm/comp sound and also for a crazy/funky waveshaper.

schematic :
this is my first attempt to "design" a "circuit" Wink))
R4 is a mistake... i'm not an expert... just learning by myself !
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bassculture



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

and...

i was thinking of using the other half of the TL072 as another inverting buffer for negative feedback Wink
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bassculture



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi everybody,


just to let you know i finally get to it Wink

thank you marc fot the help !

so i wired a pot beetween -15 and ground to bias pin 6, and the same with pin 4.
the two settings interact, and allowed to change the set of harmonics the tube provide.

feeding the circuit with a sine wave, it's really obvious looking at a spectrum analyser Smile

i used 100k lin pot, but i have to work here because the load it adds (i suppose) modified the biasing point where the clean signal is.
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sonicwarrior



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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If anyone cares I have compiled the mentioned mods into a PDF file to have a nicer print layout.


PrimateSynthesis CGS65 Mods.pdf
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sonicwarrior



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I installed most Mods today (no bias switch, left that like the original schematic):

PrimateSynthesis wrote:
Here are some pictures showing the grid bias wiring and cathode bypass modifications.


I'm a bit confused as you said you omitted the 47 pF caps although they are still on the pics.

Unfortunately I forgot to add heat shrink tube before installing the tube but the distances between the wire looks still OK.

I've attached a pic of my PCB including a pic of the back with the 100Ns caps for the OP275. I used one 1206 SMD cap as there is a gap between ground and V- where it fits exactly and used an axial ceramic cap between ground and V+.
Used a 51K instead of a 50K/49K9 for the CV input because I had that at hand and guessed 1K doesn't make much difference (my DMM measured 50K9).

Plus I've compiled the Mods I installed into the original schematic because it's easier to compare this way. Attached that, too. I hope I didn't miss anything besides the bias switch which I omitted on purpose as I want to use it for dirty stuff anyway and don't need a clean position (I guess).


Ken Stone CGS65 Tube VCA - with PrimateSynthesis Mods.jpg
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CGS65 PrimateSynthesis Mods.png
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sonicwarrior



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Finished my first modded Tube VCA:
http://electro-music.com/forum/post-363929.html#363929
So the mods as described in my schematic picture are definitely working.
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Aum Generator



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sonicwarrior wrote:
I installed most Mods today (no bias switch, left that like the original schematic)


Nice, thanks for the schematic and everything. I'm just building some and want to try these mods. Just one question - did you use 50K pots or 100K? because on your modded schematic you left them marked as 100K (only one log changed to linear), but in the PDF the autor said he used 50K linear Bourbon for all pots, so now i'm not sure if i should use 50k or 100k.

To make sure that I won't get confused and mess up something, I redrawed the changes from the schematic onto a PCB picture from ken's site. Uploading here as well...will perhaps save some time to somebody. Just beware that I have not built/tested it using that picture.


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sonicwarrior



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

On the last one (the other one is screwed in place and I was too lazy to look at that one too) I used 50K pots. But as these are just voltage dividers or attenuators it won't make a difference here.

Your drawing looks good at first sight but you are missing the bias jumper. The PCB image doesn't show the current Rev 1.1 PCB because the different bias possibilities are not on it.
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Aum Generator



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sonicwarrior wrote:
On the last one (the other one is screwed in place and I was too lazy to look at that one too) I used 50K pots. But as these are just voltage dividers or attenuators it won't make a difference here.


thanks

sonicwarrior wrote:

Your drawing looks good at first sight but you are missing the bias jumper. The PCB image doesn't show the current Rev 1.1 PCB because the different bias possibilities are not on it.


i was also missing the 50k instead of 100k on CV in. corrected.

the pcb picture on ken's site is different than pcb. when placing the 47uF i had to draw pads nearby the tube's pads, because they were not on the picture.

going to check info about the bias jumper in PDF. Only thing i see on the schematic and not on my picture is that BLUE/PURPLE arrow. Is it that?

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